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Thread: Cedars?

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Cunningham, Kansas
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    2,309

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    As Toad indicated, having cedars anywhere is good for woodland birds. The problem is that native grasslands are the most endangered habitat type on the planet and cedars work against most prairie obligate species like bobwhite, dickcissel, savannah sparrows, and many, many more. Yes, for pheasant management, the further west and north that you go, the more important they are for survival in blizzard and sub-zero weather. Where you have prairie, you are probably better off selecting Oriental Arborvitae over cedars to reduce the possibility or eventuality of spread.
    Trust the dog!

    Troy Smith

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    NW Iowa
    Posts
    39

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    I went to the posted NCRS link back a couple replys, searched for red cedars and they talk about planiting just the male plants to avoiding the volunteer seeding of them. Maybe try this where you have sensitve land that can't be burned to control them. In the row crop terrain I live in, a windbreak/shelter belt of red cears won't result in many volunteers, except maybe in the road ditches near by. Some good stands of conifers are needed when there are few trees for the birds to shelter in when we get the blizzard condtions that can eliminate all birds that can't get to shelter belts/windbreaks. I have planted many road ditch variety of red cedars around the prerimeter of nesting cover. In my option, they are useful in pheasant habitat, but left unmanaged I can see them destroying nesting cover for sure.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    South Central, KS
    Posts
    601

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prairie Drifter View Post
    As Toad indicated, having cedars anywhere is good for woodland birds. The problem is that native grasslands are the most endangered habitat type on the planet and cedars work against most prairie obligate species like bobwhite, dickcissel, savannah sparrows, and many, many more. Yes, for pheasant management, the further west and north that you go, the more important they are for survival in blizzard and sub-zero weather. Where you have prairie, you are probably better off selecting Oriental Arborvitae over cedars to reduce the possibility or eventuality of spread.


    My hatred of cedars and other trees in KS is because of the bolded statement. My dad and I took a hunting trip (well more like a sight seeing trip as we didnt run into much and had 2 dogs end up hurt) to NW Oklahoma and drove through where the wildlife burned in 2017 or 2016 or so - a lot of cedars/trees wiped out and good looking grassland but there's still 10ks of thousands of acres not being managed and will turn into a forest again --- From my understanding if the native seedbank goes on for maybe 20 years or so without an opportunity to flourish it can be gone for good even if say 30 years later you get rid of the trees. It's just a crying shame that there aren't more economic incentives to preserve this habitat which IMO would be economically beneficial for ranchers/ag producers to do so.

    I've taken a keen interest on the subject of plains history say mid 1800s on when the plains were being settled and the conflicts with the natives at the time - Right now reading a book titled "Son of the Morning Star" -- about 500 or so pages long but details Custer and his last stand - but takes a LOT of sidebars to detail Custer's reports on what the plains were like and other military or historical figures at the time reported seeing - it is a crying shame what America has let happen to the prairie - we'd never get back the eco-diversity from the 1800s time period but in places we could get part of it back if folks gave a darn and stopped doing things a certain way because Grandpa and my neighbors do it this way or simply due to laziness or misguided thoughts on deer management/horn greed.


    NE ks has all but screwed itself from Junction City east and quickly the Smokey hills will follow behind if they do not keep the trees in check, specifically the cedars - it'd also be nice if they'd stop putting up the damn windmills. I just do not understand for the life of me some of the thoughts of more "modern" ways of so called "ag production" -- "Modern" ways is what back in the day caused the dust bowl and "Modern" ways is what will destroy what's left of the prairie if it's not managed for the long view instead of the short view everyone tends to take. The long view IMO is well past one's own lifetime - folks IMO are mostly concerned with what's good for me now. I dont know how old everyone is on here but we are starting to see the Ogallala aquifer become depleted -- I'm not sure how much longer it will take to ruin that resource in the name of corn but I'm making an educated guess my son will see a huge transformation - I've witnessed quite the transformation since living in/becoming acquainted with SW KS in 2004-5 when I lived in Holcomb and the years since when I've hunted there. No one will talk about how the State of KS and Sunflower/Wheatland Electric namely by their decisions Raped 30 square miles of sand sage habitat. I've brought it up many times on here, maybe someone else will look into it.


    If any of you are on FB - there's a guy on there called Red Hills Rancher that puts out quite a bit of content on managing farmland/ranchland (Believe he's an active land manager for a large rancher around Medicine Lodge somewhere) -- anyways - good guy to follow and lots of good info on things that are being done or that folks can do to manage their properties with profit and sustainability in mind. Lots of info on cedar eradication and how it's helped pastures he's been working in.
    Last edited by KsHusker; 02-16-2020 at 01:05 PM.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by KsHusker View Post
    My hatred of cedars and other trees in KS is because of the bolded statement. My dad and I took a hunting trip (well more like a sight seeing trip as we didnt run into much and had 2 dogs end up hurt) to NW Oklahoma and drove through where the wildlife burned in 2017 or 2016 or so - a lot of cedars/trees wiped out and good looking grassland but there's still 10ks of thousands of acres not being managed and will turn into a forest again --- From my understanding if the native seedbank goes on for maybe 20 years or so without an opportunity to flourish it can be gone for good even if say 30 years later you get rid of the trees. It's just a crying shame that there aren't more economic incentives to preserve this habitat which IMO would be economically beneficial for ranchers/ag producers to do so.

    I've taken a keen interest on the subject of plains history say mid 1800s on when the plains were being settled and the conflicts with the natives at the time - Right now reading a book titled "Son of the Morning Star" -- about 500 or so pages long but details Custer and his last stand - but takes a LOT of sidebars to detail Custer's reports on what the plains were like and other military or historical figures at the time reported seeing - it is a crying shame what America has let happen to the prairie - we'd never get back the eco-diversity from the 1800s time period but in places we could get part of it back if folks gave a darn and stopped doing things a certain way because Grandpa and my neighbors do it this way or simply due to laziness or misguided thoughts on deer management/horn greed.


    NE ks has all but screwed itself from Junction City east and quickly the Smokey hills will follow behind if they do not keep the trees in check, specifically the cedars - it'd also be nice if they'd stop putting up the damn windmills. I just do not understand for the life of me some of the thoughts of more "modern" ways of so called "ag production" -- "Modern" ways is what back in the day caused the dust bowl and "Modern" ways is what will destroy what's left of the prairie if it's not managed for the long view instead of the short view everyone tends to take. The long view IMO is well past one's own lifetime - folks IMO are mostly concerned with what's good for me now. I dont know how old everyone is on here but we are starting to see the Ogallala aquifer become depleted -- I'm not sure how much longer it will take to ruin that resource in the name of corn but I'm making an educated guess my son will see a huge transformation - I've witnessed quite the transformation since living in/becoming acquainted with SW KS in 2004-5 when I lived in Holcomb and the years since when I've hunted there. No one will talk about how the State of KS and Sunflower/Wheatland Electric namely by their decisions Raped 30 square miles of sand sage habitat. I've brought it up many times on here, maybe someone else will look into it.


    If any of you are on FB - there's a guy on there called Red Hills Rancher that puts out quite a bit of content on managing farmland/ranchland (Believe he's an active land manager for a large rancher around Medicine Lodge somewhere) -- anyways - good guy to follow and lots of good info on things that are being done or that folks can do to manage their properties with profit and sustainability in mind. Lots of info on cedar eradication and how it's helped pastures he's been working in.
    Sounds like your hatred is of management practices, not tree's. Human's will eventually ruin everything.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    167

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    I don’t buy for a second that it takes cedars to have pheasants, and the science backs me up. That said, if it did, I’d choose good prairie over pheasant populations any day. One of the 2 belongs here, the other is just a dying hobby for people like me.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Manhattan Ks
    Posts
    637

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    While I dont think that Manhattan will burn to the ground, there are lots of good points made about cedars. As I was running dogs and looking for a dog who had made a 1mile cast, I walked through some pastures that are in big trouble and this topic came to mind. Took some pictures... Its a damn shame they are some beautiful pastures.

    Edit - My apologies for the size of the pictures on the thread. Im not sure how to post them as thumbnails.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by V-John; 02-17-2020 at 11:47 AM.

  7. #17
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    Nov 2019
    Location
    NW Iowa
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    39

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    Those areas are in trouble without any intervention....like a season off grazing and then a burn.

  8. #18
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    Jan 2011
    Location
    Colony, Ks
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    640

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    Again I will say it one ore time than I am done. The pictures above is due to poor management it's not the cedars fault. You guys do know that cedars are native to Kansas right? There is a reason they are taking over pastures now and not 150 years ago. The Kansas Forest Service offers them online at a reduced cost for windbreaks for a reason.
    Last edited by fsentkilr; 02-18-2020 at 02:34 PM.

  9. #19
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    Nov 2010
    Location
    Manhattan Ks
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    637

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsentkilr View Post
    Again I will say it one ore time than I am done. The pictures above is do to poor management it's not the cedars fault. You guys do know that cedars are native to Kansas right? There is a reason they are taking over pastures now and not 150 years ago. The Kansas Forest Service offers them online at a reduced cost for windbreaks for a reason.
    I'm not sure anyone is 'blaming' cedars. I just posted a picture of a couple pastures that were going to be taken over by cedars. And absolutely agree, that is poor management. Do you think that pastures were better managed 150 years ago as opposed to today?

    Side note. Do cedars care if they are being blamed on an internet message board?

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    10

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsentkilr View Post
    Again I will say it one ore time than I am done. The pictures above is do to poor management it's not the cedars fault. You guys do know that cedars are native to Kansas right? There is a reason they are taking over pastures now and not 150 years ago. The Kansas Forest Service offers them online at a reduced cost for windbreaks for a reason.
    They are native but historically very few existed. Mostly on seeps on north facing hillsides where fire couldnt get them. They didnt really start offerring them until the dustbowl when the buffalo grass was gone due to tillage and nothing held the soil.. The govt also planted salt cedar and sericea lespedeza and we all know how that has turned out.

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