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Thread: Is rural Kansas dying?

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Lawrence, Kansas
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    4,127

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    Crop prices drive rural economies, and the prices are down below cost of production. No money to spare for eating and drinking out.

    Las Canteras in Hill City is good too.
    Last edited by BritChaser; 01-15-2019 at 02:50 PM.
    - From the office of Colt, Stoeger, Browning & Savage
    - Kansas: Big Cock Country

  2. #12
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    Nov 2013
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    Monroe Georgia
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    328

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    ďAnyway, I wasn't totally happy with the outfitter to say the least, but it was nice to get out of town. Killed quite a few pheasants that didn't quite seem wary enough to fool us into thinking they were wild birdsď

    This is a huge part of the problem hunting is being commercialized and monetized.

    But Iíve resolved myself to hunting disappearing for everyone but the elite

  3. #13
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    Jul 2015
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    Mid Missouri
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAB7799 View Post
    4 years ago I asked 24 land owners for permission to hunt.... now this was near Wamego area but out of those 24, 3 told me yes. The ground I do have is really good but damn it takes a lot of work and knocking/calling to get it.
    Thats about the rate you will get in Missouri. I try not to waste alot of time on it. And I dont do it much anymore, but I would either catch someone outside, in the field, look for the open garage door, or machine shed door. Try to catch someone at home. I dont phone call for permission, I feel more comfortable talking to people. I think getting permission on the spot helps too. I've gotten permission in the off season before then got a phone call saying I couldn't. What happened is they got to talking to people about it, word got around and someone they knew and were closer too decided they wanted to hunt it and so I lost it. Had I asked day of, I would've gotten to hunt that place. At least once...
    Some people talk about it, some people live it!

  4. #14
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    Jul 2015
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    Mid Missouri
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritChaser View Post
    Crop prices drive rural economies, and the prices are down below cost of production. No money to spare for eating and drinking out.

    The Las Canteras in Hill City is good too.
    I would have a change in attitude too if I was losing money like that. Farming is definitely crucial for the survival of the midwest.
    Some people talk about it, some people live it!

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by KsHusker View Post
    McFarmer - would you care to have a dialogue about some of the economic decisions that go into farming certain ways - if not here maybe offline - I really want to learn some of what drives what we see out there. Not to hijack this thread. But saw you replied - thinking based on some of your posts you are a producer it seems in Iowa. Obviously some decisions are geographic specific but in the grain belt some of the practices overall should be nearly the same. Perhaps Fsentkilr would join in as I believe he is a producer in Eastern KS - but about in the middle N to S - I dont know how to tag him but hoping he sees this.

    I have a plethora of questions as I simply have a desire to learn that perspective.

    I would absolutely welcome making this part of the discussion.

    I own some farm land in IL. We have been told the last couple of years in seminars that the "average" farmer is within a few $$ of breaking at current crop prices, and maybe even losing money. It sure seems like "planting" birds has a potential to yield a positive cash flow if done correctly, but I'm not sure how you sell that to farmers. It costs a couple hundred per person per day minimum to use an outfitter, or you have the choice to take a chance on WIHA until you hit good areas. I would certainly be willing to spend $100/day for access to good habitat that holds some birds. My trip costs would be 1/2 what they are through an outfitter.

    The biggest problem I would see is that to be truly successful habitat probably has to be done on a scale bigger than one farmer. Add to that many farmers are renting land on a year to year basis, while habitat is a multi-year proposition. But if you could get several big acreage farmers and land owners together to set aside 10 to 15% of the most marginal crop ground for habitat in say one township, and find some way to manage access (maybe a windshield card purchased from KSoutdoors or something), then there may well be a way to make farming birds more profitable than corn on those marginal acres. If you could manage $100/per person/day, and get reasonable hunting based on a person day of hunting for every 2 habitat acres then the farmer has $50/acre cash flow. If the state, county or FSA could cost share the habitat improvement costs then something like $50/acre profit might sound tempting.

    Seems like a no brainer for the legislature to exempt such a program from any liability for injuries, which takes that concern mostly out of the equation.

    But unfortunately my knowledge of farm economics is too shallow to know how the numbers would actually play out.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    South Central, KS
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    567

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makintrax73 View Post
    I would absolutely welcome making this part of the discussion.

    I own some farm land in IL. We have been told the last couple of years in seminars that the "average" farmer is within a few $$ of breaking at current crop prices, and maybe even losing money. It sure seems like "planting" birds has a potential to yield a positive cash flow if done correctly, but I'm not sure how you sell that to farmers. It costs a couple hundred per person per day minimum to use an outfitter, or you have the choice to take a chance on WIHA until you hit good areas. I would certainly be willing to spend $100/day for access to good habitat that holds some birds. My trip costs would be 1/2 what they are through an outfitter...... If the state, county or FSA could cost share the habitat improvement costs then something like $50/acre profit might sound tempting.

    Seems like a no brainer for the legislature to exempt such a program from any liability for injuries, which takes that concern mostly out of the equation.

    But unfortunately my knowledge of farm economics is too shallow to know how the numbers would actually play out.


    I'd really like to zero in on the business side of things -

    Things I'm curious about --- say you have an overgrown shelterbelt/hedgerow (or bodarks for our OK bretheren)
    ** What is the rough cost to tear the shelterbelt out per foot
    ** Could a better solution be signing up for a habitat program for this marginal edge ground and possibly having the govt cost share or maybe paying entirely to have the shelterbelt side cut (I've seen the machines) nearly to the ground creating shrubby cover again and providing a windbreak/snow break/blowing break, but allowing more sunlight to your field edges?
    ** What will be the payback once you gain this extra tillable ground and how many years would it take to get this payback - does it really make financial sense to do this?
    ** Are you accounting for the fact that more than likely yields on this extra ground you gained will be lower for a # of years (a hypothesis of mine)
    ** If you signed up for the CP33 (I think that's what it's called) program -- edge/habitat strips would you be money ahead earning income off of land that was marginal to begin with
    ** What is your time and cost of capital worth (refer back to 1st question on how much would it cost to tear the shelterbelt out) --- also what is your time worth


    Spraying and GMO Seeds
    ** What does it cost to use GMO seeds vs varieties that are not GMO
    ** How many extra inputs and what is the extra cost to use GMO -- spraying primarily and upfront cost for the seeds
    ** If you did not use GMO - maybe your yields would be slightly lower but if your inputs are likely less could your profit be nearly the same?
    ** Again factoring in time and money - if you are practicing super clean farming your inputs of both time and money have to be higher - are you really getting a much higher profit percentage farming this way vs some of the more traditional ways? Again what is your time worth and what is your cost of capital worth?


    Crop Insurance
    *** I need a better understanding of how this works - and I'd have a # of questions on how this can factor into the above.

    Community
    ** If your community had more ecotourism would it be worth it to you?
    ** Do you ever think a by-product of not having game around is having a negative impact on your community?



    Ranching
    *** a Couple of simple questions here -
    ** Sarcastic question ---> Dont you realize that letting your cattle or someone elses cattle graze the grass down to the dirt every year is stressing the natural balance of things and you'll continue to get crappier and crappier grass output as time goes on - It's not rocket science

    **Serious questions again -->> Does burning every single year truly make sense from a time/money perspective -- what true gains are you getting by doing this?

    ** Trees - why have you not controlled them? Dont you realize you will have marginal grass production when you let your land turn into a cedar or locust forest? I believe there are numerous cost share programs out there to help get rid of them

    ** Learn about rotational burning and spraying aren't bad tools if used correctly -

    ** I'd like to think ranching has much simpler solutions


    Just pounding this out I'm probably using some of the wrong terms but hopefully someone gets what I'm trying to drill down on.

    I'd think a byproduct of shifting some of the farming practices to ways that would benefit wildlife would be more money in the farmers pocket - more of their time back, lower capital outlays, a better sense of community among other things - I could be hypothesizing all wrong - I'm not sure - but I've yet to see any real dollars and cents comparisons. It just seems that most have taken the mentality that if Joe Smith up the road is doing it that way because X Seed company says it will be better for him and he'll make money they just end up doing it without completing any real analysis and factoring in things such as cost of capital or one of the things you can never get back -- your time.
    Last edited by KsHusker; 01-15-2019 at 01:58 PM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Gardner, KS
    Posts
    308

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    Sounds like I need to try the Mexican restaurant in Smith Center? My uncle has property out there and I do maintenance on it several times per year and usually eat at Jiffy Burger, Subway or the Rusty Tractor in Kensington (great steaks!).
    Last edited by RuttCrazed; 01-15-2019 at 04:02 PM.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    387

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    Quote Originally Posted by KsHusker View Post
    McFarmer - would you care to have a dialogue about some of the economic decisions that go into farming certain ways - if not here maybe offline - I really want to learn some of what drives what we see out there. Not to hijack this thread. But saw you replied - thinking based on some of your posts you are a producer it seems in Iowa. Obviously some decisions are geographic specific but in the grain belt some of the practices overall should be nearly the same. Perhaps Fsentkilr would join in as I believe he is a producer in Eastern KS - but about in the middle N to S - I dont know how to tag him but hoping he sees this.

    I have a plethora of questions as I simply have a desire to learn that perspective.
    Sure, Iím not shy about expressing myself. Iíve also been married for over forty years so you wonít be the first to tell me Iím wrong, and my back has a good slope to it.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Delavan, WI
    Posts
    42

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    Quote Originally Posted by KsHusker View Post
    I'd really like to zero in on the business side of things -

    Things I'm curious about --- say you have an overgrown shelterbelt/hedgerow (or bodarks for our OK bretheren)
    ** What is the rough cost to tear the shelterbelt out per foot
    ** Could a better solution be signing up for a habitat program for this marginal edge ground and possibly having the govt cost share or maybe paying entirely to have the shelterbelt side cut (I've seen the machines) nearly to the ground creating shrubby cover again and providing a windbreak/snow break/blowing break, but allowing more sunlight to your field edges?
    ** What will be the payback once you gain this extra tillable ground and how many years would it take to get this payback - does it really make financial sense to do this?
    ** Are you accounting for the fact that more than likely yields on this extra ground you gained will be lower for a # of years (a hypothesis of mine)
    ** If you signed up for the CP33 (I think that's what it's called) program -- edge/habitat strips would you be money ahead earning income off of land that was marginal to begin with
    ** What is your time and cost of capital worth (refer back to 1st question on how much would it cost to tear the shelterbelt out) --- also what is your time worth


    Spraying and GMO Seeds
    ** What does it cost to use GMO seeds vs varieties that are not GMO
    ** How many extra inputs and what is the extra cost to use GMO -- spraying primarily and upfront cost for the seeds
    ** If you did not use GMO - maybe your yields would be slightly lower but if your inputs are likely less could your profit be nearly the same?
    ** Again factoring in time and money - if you are practicing super clean farming your inputs of both time and money have to be higher - are you really getting a much higher profit percentage farming this way vs some of the more traditional ways? Again what is your time worth and what is your cost of capital worth?


    Crop Insurance
    *** I need a better understanding of how this works - and I'd have a # of questions on how this can factor into the above.

    Community
    ** If your community had more ecotourism would it be worth it to you?
    ** Do you ever think a by-product of not having game around is having a negative impact on your community?



    Ranching
    *** a Couple of simple questions here -
    ** Sarcastic question ---> Dont you realize that letting your cattle or someone elses cattle graze the grass down to the dirt every year is stressing the natural balance of things and you'll continue to get crappier and crappier grass output as time goes on - It's not rocket science

    **Serious questions again -->> Does burning every single year truly make sense from a time/money perspective -- what true gains are you getting by doing this?

    ** Trees - why have you not controlled them? Dont you realize you will have marginal grass production when you let your land turn into a cedar or locust forest? I believe there are numerous cost share programs out there to help get rid of them

    ** Learn about rotational burning and spraying aren't bad tools if used correctly -

    ** I'd like to think ranching has much simpler solutions


    Just pounding this out I'm probably using some of the wrong terms but hopefully someone gets what I'm trying to drill down on.

    I'd think a byproduct of shifting some of the farming practices to ways that would benefit wildlife would be more money in the farmers pocket - more of their time back, lower capital outlays, a better sense of community among other things - I could be hypothesizing all wrong - I'm not sure - but I've yet to see any real dollars and cents comparisons. It just seems that most have taken the mentality that if Joe Smith up the road is doing it that way because X Seed company says it will be better for him and he'll make money they just end up doing it without completing any real analysis and factoring in things such as cost of capital or one of the things you can never get back -- your time.
    There is a lot to unpackage there and costs for every farmer are different depending on their operation. I'll just touch on the GMO thing because I see you bring it up a lot. Most time the reduced cost of NON GMO seeds are offset by either more manual labor and time, more spraying of chemical, or loss in yield. Agriculture is probably the fastest growing technology sector there is and ROI is the name of the game in farming. Everything has to pay otherwise they wouldn't do it, especially with markets being as low as they are right now. I can guarantee that farmers aren't doing things without analysis as you eluded to. The maps that my customers are able to create with the data they collect is really amazing, variable seeding and fertilizer rates to maximize the production of each acre, soil sampling to see which nutrients are needed an where, and tailoring crop variety by soil type, maturity, genetics to ensure production.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Colony, Ks
    Posts
    619

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGD View Post
    There is a lot to unpackage there and costs for every farmer are different depending on their operation. I'll just touch on the GMO thing because I see you bring it up a lot. Most time the reduced cost of NON GMO seeds are offset by either more manual labor and time, more spraying of chemical, or loss in yield. Agriculture is probably the fastest growing technology sector there is and ROI is the name of the game in farming. Everything has to pay otherwise they wouldn't do it, especially with markets being as low as they are right now. I can guarantee that farmers aren't doing things without analysis as you eluded to. The maps that my customers are able to create with the data they collect is really amazing, variable seeding and fertilizer rates to maximize the production of each acre, soil sampling to see which nutrients are needed an where, and tailoring crop variety by soil type, maturity, genetics to ensure production.
    What he said. We don't do stuff for the fun of it. There is an economic reason behind everything. There is a reason the vast majority of corn and beans planted are GMO.

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