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Thread: Retrieving issues

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobman View Post
    well you can use force and get it done or you can change the dogs mind with a little effort

    see when you force a dog to do anything he doesn't want to do he's always doing it because he's avoiding a reprimand. There's always going to be a need for repeating the lesson when he again decides he wants to do something you don't want him to do.

    now if you can use a little psychology to make him decide he actually thinks it's his decision and wants to give you the bird the problem goes away forever.

    Same thing works with little kids FWIW, if you want a child to pick up his toys or get ready for bed now you've given them a choice and empowered the child ( in his mind lol ) to make his decision and do what you want. Because they now think it's their idea.

    If you can make a dog believe in his mind that what you are wanting is what he also WANTS to do the resistance disappears forever.
    Here is the bingo!
    Some people talk about it, some people live it!

  2. #12
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    Listen to Gatzby! He knows his stuff and his advise is spot on. Talk to the trainer before you try and "fix" the issue. My guess is if the dog was at the trainer for three months the trainer has a grasp on the dog, its quirks and what he does to get the proper response. i am guessing it is in the way you are receiving the bird from him. Something is different and the dog isn't sure of what he should do. Simple phone call or a visit might go a long way!

  3. #13

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    Yea that's what my plan is. I appreciate the advice, I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Yea that's what my plan is. I appreciate the advice, I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
    None of my business, but since you posted, I am still curious as the what the training program consisted of. What did the dog learn and what was the emphasis of the program?

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobman View Post
    first you should never allow him drop it, he should give the bird to you when you reach for it, if you allow him to drop it he'll drop a pheasant and the damn thing will try to run off lol

    now how to fix him

    have him sit holding the bird, you kneel next to him and gently grasp his collar with your left hand and just pet him no talk just quietly hold him, don't reach for the bird right away. After quietly petting him for about 45 second seconds or so reach for the bird command "give" if he doesn't give it to you just keep petting him (don't talk at all during this process the only command he will hear is "give")

    make him stay there for another minute a try again, command give, if he gives willingly praise and send him on, if he still holds the bird just keep petting and repeat in another minute or so

    eventually he will want to go more than he wants to sit there and hold the bird ( that's why your left hand is securing his collar)and learn he isn't going anywhere until he gives you the bird, once he learns that he will give you the bird on command

    Wouldn't it be easier if you taught the dog to hold before trying reinforce him to do something that he has not learned yet? You want him to sit and hold but we don't even know the level of it's obedience yet! You want him to sit and stay and then hold before teaching the obedience commands? Not wanting to start a debate but the dog has been through a program with a trainer for 3 months. This needs to be handled with the owner and the trainer and sticking with what the dog has been taught not forum members trying to fix something with a dog that we know nothing about.
    Last edited by westksbowhunter; 04-10-2017 at 04:38 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobman View Post
    first you should never allow him drop it, he should give the bird to you when you reach for it, if you allow him to drop it he'll drop a pheasant and the damn thing will try to run off lol

    now how to fix him

    have him sit holding the bird, you kneel next to him and gently grasp his collar with your left hand and just pet him no talk just quietly hold him, don't reach for the bird right away. After quietly petting him for about 45 second seconds or so reach for the bird command "give" if he doesn't give it to you just keep petting him (don't talk at all during this process the only command he will hear is "give")

    make him stay there for another minute a try again, command give, if he gives willingly praise and send him on, if he still holds the bird just keep petting and repeat in another minute or so

    eventually he will want to go more than he wants to sit there and hold the bird ( that's why your left hand is securing his collar)and learn he isn't going anywhere until he gives you the bird, once he learns that he will give you the bird on command
    Really what you are suggesting is shaping a behavior much like clickers and treats. While I am a strong believer that shaping behavior is a great method for some trainers and some dogs I don't think it's sound advice in this case. In order for your method to work You are assuming the dog will remain sitting and not drop the bird or chomp on it. I would be surprised if either of these assumptions are accurate with a young dog. If the pup doesnt sit relatively calmly and hold solidly I can't see this working. You will spend all your time fighting these issues and diluting what you are trying to achieve.

    PS I still teach "parlor tricks" to my dogs using a clicker and treats while we are bored in the winter. But when it comes to there real job I am 100% a FF advocate, while I prefer attrirition to pressure I will use pressure when ever appropriate!
    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

  7. #17
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    no need to be so adversarial I am well aware there is definitely more than one way to train a dog, I simply offered a proven method that doesn't require force.

    Most hunters won't follow through a FF routine, especially on a resistant dog, so I like to offer an alternative that they can feel good doing.

    to answer the questions from above

    the problem is not getting the dog to hold, he's already holding, he is refusing to release if I read the OPs post correctly

    the dogs already trained to a point that would indicate he knows sit, so he will sit

    your left hand is firmly holding his collar so that is why he won't run off, infact that why this method works, young dogs always want to move on. You don't let him until he willingly gives.

    I've been training labs and pointing dogs since the late 60s both personal dogs and for other folks. I quit training other folks dogs in the late 80s. I maintain a string of 8-12 personal dogs and have for the last 38 years or more. My point mentioning this is simply that i do have a lot of personal experience working with problem dogs and this is a common problem especially with pointing dogs.

    The technique I offer above doesn't use treats or a clicker and it works well because the dog makes the connect that the release means he get to have more fun hunting. And it won't mess up a dog like someone that will not got through a FF routine.

    It's slower and takes patience and it's pleasant and simple understand and to do, few people find force fetch training pleasant.

    This technique is really more useful and aimed for upland type retrieve work where a dog wants to get back to the hunt, but this is a pheasant hunting site.

    I was trying to be helpful.
    Last edited by bobman; 04-10-2017 at 09:36 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobman View Post
    no need to be so adversarial I am well aware there is definitely more than one way to train a dog, I simply offered a proven method that doesn't require force.

    Most hunters won't follow through a FF routine, especially on a resistant dog, so I like to offer an alternative that they can feel good doing.

    to answer the questions from above

    the problem is not getting the dog to hold, he's already holding, he is refusing to release if I read the OPs post correctly

    the dogs already trained to a point that would indicate he knows sit, so he will sit

    your left hand is firmly holding his collar so that is why he won't run off, infact that why this method works, young dogs always want to move on. You don't let him until he willingly gives.

    I've been training labs and pointing dogs since the late 60s both personal dogs and for other folks. I quit training other folks dogs in the late 80s. I maintain a string of 8-12 personal dogs and have for the last 38 years or more. My point mentioning this is simply that i do have a lot of personal experience working with problem dogs and this is a common problem especially with pointing dogs.

    The technique I offer above doesn't use treats or a clicker and it works well because the dog makes the connect that the release means he get to have more fun hunting. And it won't mess up a dog like someone that will not got through a FF routine.

    It's slower and takes patience and it's pleasant and simple understand and to do, few people find force fetch training pleasant.

    This technique is really more useful and aimed for upland type retrieve work where a dog wants to get back to the hunt, but this is a pheasant hunting site.

    I was trying to be helpful.
    I'm sorry if I came off adversarial, that was not my intent. I may have painted with to broad of stoke.

    As far as the OP is concerned the best answer is getting in touch with his trainer first. "Reinventing the wheel" at this point makes very little sense. That is why I said I didn't think your advice applies in this case. My guess is the OP is grabbing at the bird in to much of a hurry and shotgunning commands like "sit, hold, drop, give, and here" as nervous chatter. With the number of dogs and handlers you have been around you have seen this many times. Calming down and shutting ones mouth fixes a lot of line manner issues.

    And I will say again I don't doubt your method will work, I also agree that pressure is unlikely to be be the fix for a "sticky" dog early on. "Sticky" can be a tough nut to crack if allowed to become habit. Once it becomes a habit then pressure might become the only answer and it isn't pleasant for anyone.

    Call the trainer, meet with him is step one.

    After all this has been said none of have seen the issue, none of us know what the dog has been trained to do. Everything I have said could be complete crap!!

    I'm moving on, we have open water finally, all the good dogs are coming north for the summer. Time to be training before the trial/test season starts in a few weeks.
    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by PheasantWhisperer View Post
    Here is the bingo!
    Less Pressure is the answer ,Ham fisted techniques / force are shortcuts.
    Your dog is VERY young, Perhaps too much to soon. What is the rush ?
    Good Luck

  10. #20
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    I was refering more to patience. As Bobman said patience is key, especially in a puppy.
    Some people talk about it, some people live it!

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