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Dakotazeb
03-04-2010, 07:54 PM
Been thinking about getting myself a auto handgun. Looking at the Glock's, Smith's and Ruger's in either 9mm or .40 S&W. Anyone have any suggestions on what, or what not, to get?

jeffstally
03-04-2010, 08:39 PM
I have a springfield XD 9 that I have had good luck with. It is similar in looks to a Glock. I am not a handgun expert by any means though...

birdman652001
03-04-2010, 08:45 PM
you thinking of auto as in hold the trigger and it keeps firing? or Semi Auto?

Auto: Illegal

Semi-Auto: Legal


Glock 22 or 23 would be a good choice. 23 is a compact of a glock 22. 22 is the full verison

Springfield XD .40.

if you like a gun that you can shoot somewhat but like to have it for looks...

smith and wessions M&P gun is a nice buy.


if you like .45 cals... you have to get no other than a springfield 1911.. OR kimber 1911 .45. got a heck of a kick but awesome guns.

Sig Sauer P226 or P229.. my Sgt has one for practice shooting and he likes it. I have a S&W Sigma Series which they dont make anymore and looks like a Glock.

Glock would be the best choice if you ask me. The US Marshal, FBI and secert services around here carry Glocks. I think back in my hometown carries Sigs as well as I carried it when I worked for the Sheriffs office in Sioux Falls. but my sig was a measly 9mm. i didnt care for it. Glocks were more fit, durable, accuracy, along with long life period.

birdshooter
03-04-2010, 09:21 PM
birdman,

What do you know about the Beretta PX4 or even H&K USP's?

Know anyone who carries one?

Dakotazeb
03-04-2010, 09:28 PM
birdman, of course I was talking semi-auto. So you are saying the Glock in 40 S&W would be the best choice? That's what a friend that is retired from the Denver PD recommended.

Which Glock, the 22 or 23? I want a personal defense handgun as well as something I can shoot for pleasure.

birdman652001
03-04-2010, 09:33 PM
birdman,

What do you know about the Beretta PX4 or even H&K USP's?

Know anyone who carries one?

H&Ks are good guns but rather expensive.


if you want a gun that doesnt malfunction.. Sigs or Glocks would be the way to go.

Berettas.. im sorry... to me.. youre paying for the brand, not the gun. Ive been around handguns most of my life (my fam has military and LE people) but that doesnt make me an expert though.



Beretta PX4 Storm looks decent but personally, I cant say anything bc i have not experienced one before.

H&Ks i have. the H&K USP (Universal Self-loading Pistol) feels exactly like my S&W Sigma series as S&W tries to copy both H&K and Glock. H&K, ive had them malfunction on me and thankfully they werent duty guns. my S&W sigma has had the striker break on me and couldnt fire. Thankfully no matter how old it was, it was a free replacement.

like i said, im no expert, but im telling from experince.

our annual shoot competition, lots of people use Sigs or Glocks for their competition for our police shoot-out trial.

BleuBijou
03-04-2010, 09:34 PM
Tell ya what, I will put my XD 45 up against anything. For years I have had troubles shooting a pistol, until the XD. Comfort, shoots great, and 13 plus 1 in a 45. Fire power!!!!!! I have my conceal carry, and this gun sits sweet on my hip. Easy to shoot and aim, and not a ton of recoil. I find myself reloading more for this than all my rifles. I am a believer. Not a hang up yet!!!!! Try them all out, and talk to everyone you can. Talk to guys who shoot in a lot of tourneys and see what fits you and you shoot well, then make a decision. GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!! XD BELIEVER!!!!!!!!

birdman652001
03-04-2010, 09:37 PM
birdman, of course I was talking semi-auto. So you are saying the Glock in 40 S&W would be the best choice? That's what a friend that is retired from the Denver PD recommended.

Which Glock, the 22 or 23? I want a personal defense handgun as well as something I can shoot for pleasure.

22 and 23 are same cal guns. 23 is a compact which you could hide easy but not too small. i got big hands and my hand fits on it well. Id use this 23 for a backup if the dept would let me bc its small enuf to put on an ankle brace.

22 is a full size you sell all LEO carry.

22 is a good gun to have. 23 is a fun little compact. go to Google and type in Glock 23 and look at the images. then go to a gun shop and try them out..

while youre there.. get a feel for a springfield XD40 if you want a 40 cal. you may like the fit of your hand. try a few before you buy. find one that your hand doesnt crowd or barely reach to hold the pistol grip. find one that FITS your hand. Most Glocks do fit and consider a universal fit for all. to me 9MM just pisses a person off if you want something to protect your family. you need stopping power. .45 is too much and can throw your arms off on accuracy when firing over and over in a quickly manner.

40mm is perfect for our ages.. 9mm isnt gonna stop someone unless you empty the mag.

with a 40mm, 1-3 shots should stop a person if they broke into your house.

ive seen 22s range from 425.00 to 545.00.

sigs are higher as well. but a used one would start in 390.00 on up.



result, id say Glock 23 if you want a personal defense as well as fun shooting targets.. you could carry this with you and wouldnt even see it unless you like tight clothing.

birdman652001
03-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Tell ya what, I will put my XD 45 up against anything. For years I have had troubles shooting a pistol, until the XD. Comfort, shoots great, and 13 plus 1 in a 45. Fire power!!!!!! I have my conceal carry, and this gun sits sweet on my hip. Easy to shoot and aim, and not a ton of recoil. I find myself reloading more for this than all my rifles. I am a believer. Not a hang up yet!!!!! Try them all out, and talk to everyone you can. Talk to guys who shoot in a lot of tourneys and see what fits you and you shoot well, then make a decision. GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!! XD BELIEVER!!!!!!!!

OH i wont disagree with you! XDs are well fit guns.. however, there was a reason why the PD around here wont get XDs.. its bc of their back safety deal can pinch the skin inbetween your thumb and finger in a fast draw.. its said to have happened. thats why we are with Glocks. Sigs, you better get used to pressing safety off when drawing out of holster.

again glock has a "double" trigger for safety.. or AUTO safety mode. XD is the same way, EXCEPT on the back of the pistol grip.


I have a level 2 SL3.2.1 holster and i can see pinching myself on that XD in a fast reaction draw. Ive pinched my finger on the glock a few times and believe me, my nerves in my finger would go for days before it goes away.

but for durable and dependablity, Glock would pass that test. its made in Austria.

Dakotazeb
03-04-2010, 10:28 PM
Birdman, what loads would you recommend for a .40 S&W in say the Glock 23.

onpoint
03-04-2010, 10:30 PM
Quote
"
but for durable and dependablity, Glock would pass that test. its made in Austria. "
____________________________

I'll just say I disagree. First off I would want a double & single action auto myself. Also the Glock has no safety and is double action only. Not something I look for in a gun. If you plan on shooting any reloaded ammo. The Glock becomes very finicky and unreliable. I like the Sig P226 or P229. Much better quality and durability then a Glock. Myself, I would even take a 92 or 96 Beretta over the glock. The Beretta will run though reloaded ammo and never give a hiccup. Very reliable guns and have the ability to fire in double or single action mode. There is no doubt that firing in single action mode, you are far more accurate. I have friends in law enforcment that refuse to carry their department issue Glock with a round in the chamber. If a suspect does get a hold of their gun. They can simply pull the trigger and wound or kill you. No safety to look for.

birdman652001
03-04-2010, 10:40 PM
I'll just say I disagree. First off I would want a double & single action auto myself. Also the Glock has no safety. .



wait what????


(deleted, no use explaining)

glock does NOT have a safety??? (deleted) see pics below

(deleted)


(deleted deleted) Edit* Pictures says it all. no use explaining. im done ranting and editing

heres a PIC of a trigger safety on this GLOCK.. this is an aftermarket

http://www.tea-and-medals.co.uk/images/glock18_triggersafety.jpg

heres a better BIGGER pic of the ORGINAL safety. factory safety. who said they dont have a safety... dang.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Glock26/DSC03047.jpg

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 12:39 AM
Birdman, what loads would you recommend for a .40 S&W in say the Glock 23.

Our dept issues 180/11.66 grain/gram speers gold dot hollow point.


our practice bullets are at 115 to 155 depending on what brand we get...

i say 115 to 155 is perfect for a 23 which is a compact gun. you wouldnt want to get too much of a kick either on a compact compared to a full size Glock.



anyways, heres a pic of a comparable Glock and S&W hand guns.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SWSigma9/MVC-025F.jpg

This is what i have.

http://usera.imagecave.com/denfoote/SW40F.jpg



you can see the safety on the S&W and Glock on this picture.

3goldens
03-05-2010, 02:19 AM
We are issued Sig P226 in 40 cal, this is a very nice fitting reliable gun. I agree with earlier posts that the HK's are not as reliable in feeding as they should be. We carried those for 8 or 10 years and out of approx. 30 guns 5 or 6 consistently had feed problems mine included and personnally they could not have given me that gun when we traded out. We tried the Beretta's did not fit my hand & i have big hands. Personnally I have a S&W 4516, 45 cal compact, and have owned it for 20 years and I wish I could carry it on duty. I have also heard good things about the Springfields several officers I work with own and like and not as expensive. Glocks also have a good reputation for reliabilty. I would defintely go big 40 or 45 & stay away from the 9mm just not enough lead to do the job.
As stated earlier, personal preference/feel is most important, you have to feel confident/comfortable with the gun or you will not develop your level of skill needed to use it when you are under the extreme stress you would face if you needed to use it.
Sig also makes I believe a P229 which is a compact 40 cal, our smaller handed officers and detectives carry that and it is just as reliable. The Sigs are double action but the trigger pull is not a real factor, it is smooth and not overly strong. Hope that helps, you have some suggestions now go wrap your hands around them and see what fits you.

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 08:12 AM
We are issued Sig P226 in 40 cal, this is a very nice fitting reliable gun. I agree with earlier posts that the HK's are not as reliable in feeding as they should be. We carried those for 8 or 10 years and out of approx. 30 guns 5 or 6 consistently had feed problems mine included and personnally they could not have given me that gun when we traded out. We tried the Beretta's did not fit my hand & i have big hands. Personnally I have a S&W 4516, 45 cal compact, and have owned it for 20 years and I wish I could carry it on duty. I have also heard good things about the Springfields several officers I work with own and like and not as expensive. Glocks also have a good reputation for reliabilty. I would defintely go big 40 or 45 & stay away from the 9mm just not enough lead to do the job.
As stated earlier, personal preference/feel is most important, you have to feel confident/comfortable with the gun or you will not develop your level of skill needed to use it when you are under the extreme stress you would face if you needed to use it.
Sig also makes I believe a P229 which is a compact 40 cal, our smaller handed officers and detectives carry that and it is just as reliable. The Sigs are double action but the trigger pull is not a real factor, it is smooth and not overly strong. Hope that helps, you have some suggestions now go wrap your hands around them and see what fits you.


you pretty much nailed it. ;) I have heard about H&Ks malfunctions. Yah when i was a Deputy, we had Sigs P226s 9MM. if you want to stop someone, you need a .40 cal.


when i was 18, i became an armed security officer and one of the officers we worked with had a 4006 S&W and it was a nice gun! at that time, I had bought a S&W Sigma 40VE

Dakotazeb. here's a list of guns to check out...

Springfield XD 40

Glock 23 or 22

and

Sig Sauer P226 or P229.


like i said, my sgt has a Sig and he loves it, I have not shot his Sig.

Chip
03-05-2010, 09:48 AM
Many good suggestions on this post. Sigs, H&k, Glock, Kimber and Springfield are all good reliable handguns.
One of the most important questions in my opinion is are you going to carry the gun concealed. If yes any of these guns can be carried concealed in the winter time but difficult to impossible to conceal in the summer time if you are wearing shorts and a T shirt.
Also it has been stated that a 9MM is too small a caliber and does not have the knock down power and that it would just piss off someone. This is not true. Loaded with Gold Dot or Hyro shock it becomes a devastating round. Another issue is how are you going to carry the gun, inside the pants ( can be uncomfortable) outside holster, ankle holster or in your pocket. Alot of guys buy large frame guns like XD.s , Glocks ect and find they can't conceal it well in the summertime so they end up not carrying a firearm or buy a smaller gun. In the case to conceal to carry size matters.
There are many issues to think about when buying a gun for self protection and I'll cover a couple more. If the purpose is for home protection you can't go wrong with a tactical shotgun with a 18 1/2 inch barrel. They range from about $300 for a pump to will over $1400 for a M4 benelli.
If A handgun is the ticket you, you have to consider your experience with handguns. Experience with shotguns and rifles are not directly tranferable to handguns although alot of guys think thet are. If you are not extremely experienced with handguns and you are going to carry I would recommend a revolver over an autoloader. I know the idea of a revolver is not sexy for some guys but if god forbide you have use your gun to defend yourself with a revolver all you have to do is point an pull the trigger.
One final thought, If you carry becareful with a gun Like a glock or S&w m&p , sigma. They are wonderful combat pistols ,but were designed for use buy a professional. If you but one practice is the key. Proficiency is purishible when it comes to handguns.
Just my opinion

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 10:06 AM
Like I had suggested, compact or full size.. compacts of a glock 40 cal would be the Glock23, Sigs, a P229 would be a compact, XD they make but i dont know the model right off the bat.


I think its more of a home protection in Dakotazeb's case.. I dont think he'll carry unless hes going out to practice.

keep in mind, Aberdeen is FULL of LE people there... its kinda hard to commit a crime and get away with it.

Dakotazeb
03-05-2010, 10:16 AM
Hey guys, thanks for all the information. I'm not new to handguns but I have never owned a semi-auto. Always been a revolver in the past.

Guess I would lean toward a compact like the Glock 23 or Sig P229. It's not that I'm going to carry it a lot but I may on occasion. More likely will be kept in the center console of my Expedition or in the night stand by the bed. And yes, I do have a "Concealed Pistol Permit.

What's the issue with the safety on the Glock compared to the others? Is the safety on the trigger the only safety? How about the others?

waynemorgan
03-05-2010, 10:25 AM
sig 226 in 40 cal,or colt 1911,the sig you is ezay to use but i like the colt my self

note you must carry the colt cocked & locked if you will be in a combat zone

BritChaser
03-05-2010, 10:27 AM
Hey guys, thanks for all the information. I'm not new to handguns but I have never owned a semi-auto. Always been a revolver in the past.

Guess I would lean toward a compact like the Glock 23 or Sig P229. It's not that I'm going to carry it a lot but I may on occasion. More likely will be kept in the center console of my Expedition or in the night stand by the bed. And yes, I do have a "Concealed Pistol Permit.

What's the issue with the safety on the Glock compared to the others? Is the safety on the trigger the only safety? How about the others?

You've gotten some authoritative advice about what make of pistol to get. But I wonder about your idea of getting a compact sized weapon. I like having a big as* weapon because of its "appearance deterence." Plus, larger, heavier guns are easier to control during firing and stressful situations.

Dakotazeb
03-05-2010, 10:29 AM
No one has even mentioned Ruger. Are they completely dogs?

goldeneye
03-05-2010, 10:30 AM
I have found lots of good info here and wish this post would of been out earlier this year while I helped my friend find a pistol. I soon found what his main promblem was his large farmer hands (for a lack of better words). he needed the XD with the larger trigger gaurd and the many ajustments to the grips. This gun fit him best. Another friend of mine asked me to help him find a gun last month I said thats easy XD well the XD did not fit his hand at all and he is looking into the Walther. I think everyone makes a good gun now a days you just need to find the one that feels right.

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 10:36 AM
No one has even mentioned Ruger. Are they completely dogs?

I wouldnt buy a ruger or a taurus.


my brother has a ruger, it mis-fires most times.

Taurus are just plain HUGE guns and they weight a ton. lol.

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 10:41 AM
What's the issue with the safety on the Glock compared to the others? Is the safety on the trigger the only safety? How about the others?





heres a PIC of a trigger safety on this GLOCK.. this is an aftermarket

http://www.tea-and-medals.co.uk/images/glock18_triggersafety.jpg


this is Factory safety
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Glock26/DSC03047.jpg

As far as I know there is no issue, I dont know why onpoint brought it up and i have never heard of this issue or failed safety on a glock... ever.

On a Springfield has a 1911 safety feature... its pretty much your hand presses down and the safety is off and has a safety on the trigger as well. on Sigs, there is a safety button to press down and cock the hammer back OR pull the trigger and the cock will come back and fire.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i9XcNg33JRw/SswAWTY-mEI/AAAAAAAAAo0/LfKss3Hkp8I/s320/xd9sub.jpg

also Springfield has a feature you can see the striker, you can see it ready to go, or if its inside the housing, you know its not ready to fire.

http://www.genitron.com/REV-SA-XD-357/SA-XD6-a2.jpg

waynemorgan
03-05-2010, 10:45 AM
I wouldnt buy a ruger or a taurus.


my brother has a ruger, it mis-fires most times.

Taurus are just plain HUGE guns and they weight a ton. lol.

ruger makes great rifles & 22 pistols but centerfire auto handguns are not verygood

please no hate mail

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 10:53 AM
ruger makes great rifles & 22 pistols but centerfire auto handguns are not verygood

please no hate mail



lol hate mail? no worries. my brother does have a .22 rifle by ruger and loves it, but as for a hand gun.. no.

waynemorgan
03-05-2010, 12:24 PM
just get the best you can anything is better then nothing
you dont want to kick yourself later....like not getting a gsp puppy that you should

hint hint:cheers:

Dakotazeb
03-05-2010, 12:33 PM
just get the best you can anything is better then nothing
you dont want to kick yourself later....like not getting a gsp puppy that you should

hint hint:cheers:

Already have the best of the breeds, Brittanys. If I was going to get a gsp I might as well get a Ruger semi-auto too! :D

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 12:34 PM
Already have the best of the breeds, Brittanys. If I was going to get a gsp I might as well get a Ruger semi-auto too! :D



hey now.. i resent that. :cheers:

VZWman
03-05-2010, 12:41 PM
Birdman 6,

I was told by a retired deputy sheriff that I should look at Taurus for a 1911. He said, and this was about 3 or 4 years ago, that they were the best of the 1911's?

waynemorgan
03-05-2010, 12:42 PM
Already have the best of the breeds, Brittanys. If I was going to get a gsp I might as well get a Ruger semi-auto too! :D

i was hopeing birdman would get the hint, i was looking for a brittany but cant aford one now ...i do love those little britts i had 2 some years back.

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 12:43 PM
tough to say, i havent shot one of those. Kimbers and Springfield 1911s have rated best from numerous of sources. Kimber 1911s are used alot in SWAT areas and military.


ive shot a Kimber and its pretty awesome gun, but just because I shot the Kimber doesnt mean its the only gun I'll vote for. Theres the original COLT 1911 you could try too, but they would be rather expensive.

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 12:44 PM
i was hopeing birdman would get the hint,

NEVER!!!

you ALIENS can probe my A$$ but never will you alter my brain to like brittanys.


CHEERS!!:cheers:



:p:D:10sign:

VZWman
03-05-2010, 12:51 PM
. Theres the original COLT 1911 you could try too, but they would be rather expensive.

I've heard also about the Kimber and Springfield, but he said for the money the Taurus was the best 1911. I read somewhere that the new Colt's are that great as far as feel and durability go.

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 01:05 PM
I see. however to the topic starter, I'd say a Glock 23 compact or a Sig P229 compact would be the best way to go for .40 cal.


As for 1911, probably an overkill for what the OP wants...

waynemorgan
03-05-2010, 01:31 PM
i did just get a colt comander it was about 750 .
i carryed a sig for years ,but my all time favorite gun is is a g e minigun ,just to big for a carry piece.

bird man, have you had a prouble with aliens before?:thumbsup::thumbsup:

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 02:12 PM
bird man, have you had a prouble with aliens before?:thumbsup::thumbsup:



I dont know what youre talking about.



:cheers:

Uncle Buck
03-05-2010, 03:40 PM
I did not shoot it and do not calim to be a pistol expert, but i had a kimber in my hand down in kansas and really liked the grip and feel. The owner swore by it.

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 03:53 PM
I did not shoot it and do not calim to be a pistol expert, but i had a kimber in my hand down in kansas and really liked the grip and feel. The owner swore by it.

Doesn't the KCS use them?

Dakotazeb
03-05-2010, 04:09 PM
Okay guys, I just got back from the gun shop. They did not stock the Sig so I looked at the Glock 22 and 23, the Springfield XD and the S&W M&P. All in .40 S&W. They were quite similar and price about the same. Not a huge difference in feel between them but if I would have had to choose right then it probably would have been the S&W due to the way it felt. I don't think anyone has mentioned the M&P on this thread yet. Thoughts?

birdman652001
03-05-2010, 04:12 PM
Okay guys, I just got back from the gun shop. They did not stock the Sig so I looked at the Glock 22 and 23, the Springfield XD and the S&W M&P. All in .40 S&W. They were quite similar and price about the same. Not a huge difference in feel between them but if I would have had to choose right then it probably would have been the S&W due to the way it felt. I don't think anyone has mentioned the M&P on this thread yet. Thoughts?

I did though about M&P in the first page i believe, if i didnt, then it must of been a edit i did.


M&P is a law enforcement gun as well like Glocks. I dont know anything about them.. what was the safety on those?

you have to fit a gun and get the comfort to fit your lifestyle, and grip.

did you shoot the M&P?

Dakotazeb
03-05-2010, 04:47 PM
No, didn't shoot any of them. SoDak Sports doesn't have a range. I should get down to Sioux Falls and visit Gary's gun shop and see if I can't fire a few difference 40's.

onpoint
03-06-2010, 01:41 AM
Difference in safety's

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/jiganator/glock.jpg

Glock, pretty simply apply pressure to the trigger and as you do the safety is disengaged. Not much of a safety, anybody who's planning on killing you with your gun can do so by just pulling the trigger. How about a little kid, if by some unknown reason gets a hold of your loaded handgun. He/she is far more likely to be able to just pull the trigger and fire the gun before being discovered with the weapon, with a Clock. Not that he or she should ever have gain access in the first place but kids can and are resourceful.


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/jiganator/safety.jpg

Beretta type safety(hammer block)

With a hammer block safety, the gun can not be fired unless the safety is manually disengaged. You can pull the trigger all day and the gun will NOT fire. Personally, I'm much more comfortable with this kind of safety feature in a firearm.

Would you hunt with a fellow who only had the Clock type safety on his/her shotgun in the Pheasant fields? Not me!!

For any benefit one claims to have with the Clock trigger safety in a combat type situation. One can find a draw back also. Would you rather be rolling around on the ground with a guy who has your Glock or with a guy who has a handgun with a hammer block safety? I'll take the gun with a hammer block safety everytime. Also, a kid trying to fire the gun would find it much more difficult to fire with the thumb operated hammer block safety.

Another safety feature to look for.Is will the gun fire without the magazine in it. If one is about to loose possession of the gun. All one has to do is slide your thumb over the mag release as the gun is being pulled from your hand. Once the magazine is unsecured the gun is useless to a attacker. Also, again a kid will find it tougher to operate the gun and make it functional with this safety feature.

Everybody has a right to their opinion and I'll respect all but this is mine. My father was Asst. chief of police in my home town and I'm a hunting partner of numerous HP, deputy and C.O's from Mn, SD and other states.

Here's a example and my belief is, this officer had a department issue Glock. IMO, had he had a gun with a thumb operated hammer block safety. things could have been much more different. Sad deal!

http://kstp.com/news/stories/s1129156.shtml

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 07:55 AM
onpoint, EVERY Gun is dangerous to a kid. Kids can figure it out... fast. they will find a way to get the safety off. They know more about computers and new tvs than we older people do. Even revolvers have stronger trigger and yet kids can pull them.


But in your eariler post, you said GLOCK does NOT have a safety. now you say they do?

I do remember a freshly new officer 2 days on the job from a year of academy training come home, (they were issued berettas) and he hugged his wife, then dropped to the floor, his 6 year old boy at the table had pulled the trigger. maybe its because most officers leave the safety off? i dunno. As an officer, I rather have it ready to fire than have to put the safety down THEN fire.


no matter where you go, as myself in Law Enforcement, every GUN is dangerous regardless the safety feature. even Berettas are dangerous guns, Just because you got the safety switch doesnt make your gun safe from all kids.

you can say all you want, ANY guns, including rifles, shotguns are NOT safe.

Police rather have a quick drawing guns than to have a switch, Im left hand, i can NOT have a trigger finger be doing the safety buttons, hence Glocks dont need an EXTRA finger to turn off the safety. if we had berettas, they wont and probaly wouldnt spend that extra dollar to get me a left hand model. you are issued what they have. period. no one gets fanicer.

in our shoot quals, we are to be able to fire our gun within 3 secs at point blank from holster 3 shots. draw out and fire without sighting or lining up a shot... every day, im 2-4 feet from a person, if they pull out a knife, i need reaction and a ready to fire with a touch of a trigger to deactivate the safety, I dont need a gun that i have to manually turn off the safety, THEN fire. i'd be dead/stabbed with a beretta.

besides.. 92-93 beretta? PD wont issue an old gun today. every gun around here gets changed to NEW guns of the same model (as berettas probably dont have the same exact model as yours) glocks.

im not gonna start a fight with you, you have it as a personal gun, you like it, great! kudos to you, BUT i wouldnt recommend it to anyone.

My aunt and uncle are both in the army, they arent issued a Beretta, they had one back in the 90's, I think they carry the Kimber 1911s now. they hated the berettas they had.

I personally like the Sigma series, but they are bulkier than the Glocks but i like how they handle but thats my opinion, you have yours.


youre not prohibited to suggest a beretta if you like. I wont throw out your post for posting a suggestion.

Even H&K are a big line guns, from statements before, they misfire... my Sigma has misfired. my Glock has NOT misfired, and so far i have heard SIGs and Springfield hasnt mis fired. I have heard of Berettas mis firing.

berettas used to be popluar for law enforcement back in the early 90's.. but sadly, they arent today. you have the 92 model, i suggest you keep it and dont get a newer beretta. you will be dissapointed.

S&W has the very same feature as what you said, you could pull the trigger all you want but wont fire til you turn off the safety. what happens That ONE day.. you show your friend, "watch this!! i can pull the trigger and it wont fire" ( you mistakely forget to turn on the safety) and (GUN FIRES).... shocking.

TREAT every gun as if it is loaded regardless if you know its empty. first thing i do is take the magazine out, then check the chamber myself. makes me wonder. seriously, YOUR trigger finger is your safety. your common sense is your safety. NOT the gun. you cant blame the gun if it goes off. you blame who was holding it and who fired it.

I watched Pawn Stars, a guy brought in an OLD west 30-30 gun. the first thing the pawn owner did was to check the chamber, it spit out a spent round. the guy was shocked and didnt know there was a spent round in there.

ive been to a gun shop.. they didnt even check to see if the chamber was empty, just handed it to me. I was amazed,

this is just an opinion. not a personal attack. everyone has their preferences. you can suggest a beretta if you want, i wont hold that against you.


another thing, I will NEVER put reloads in my pistol of any kind. i dont care what, i will NEVER use reloads. maybe in my shotgun or AR for practice but never when im on duty so no worries about glocks getting reloads in my gun. i refuse to do so. i dont care if they mess up glocks.. i wont do reloads.

i was asked about the beretta PX4 "Storm", I spoke my piece, if you have shot it before, speak up! someone wants an opinion about it.

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 08:05 AM
Here's a example and my belief is, this officer had a department issue Glock. IMO, had he had a gun with a thumb operated hammer block safety. things could have been much more different. Sad deal!

http://kstp.com/news/stories/s1129156.shtml



you know for a fact that they carried the GLOCK? I failed to read that the officer had a GLOCK. as far as i know for Minneapolis area was Berettas 92F.

edit confirmed, Minneapolis/St. Paul PD does carry the Beretta guns it was a Hammer block safety gun that killed that officer. Not a Glock. EDITED


there lots of fallen officers that were shot by their own guns and believe me, not all guns were glock, some were so called a "hammer block safety" kind of gun.

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 08:21 AM
Everybody has a right to their opinion and I'll respect all but this is mine. My father was Asst. chief of police in my home town and I'm a hunting partner of numerous HP, deputy and C.O's from Mn, SD and other states.



Really? whats your name? Im around HPs, BIA Federal officers, Co Sheriffs, Police, US Marshal, FBI, in fact one of the FBI agent from Rapid City is a dear classmate of mine so we hang out alot, and other agencies in SD and MN as well.

birdshooter
03-06-2010, 11:07 AM
Already have the best of the breeds, Brittanys. If I was going to get a gsp I might as well get a Ruger semi-auto too!



hey now.. i resent that. :cheers:


Yeah, them is fightin words.....;)

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 11:50 AM
Yeah, them is fightin words.....;)



LOL... well im not against brittanys.

its like how ford and chevy battle nascar wins. ones gonna win one race while the next one will win the second race.

onpoint
03-06-2010, 12:03 PM
birdman, not going to get into it. I just stated my opinion.

Could you please post your link to where the info can be found on the issue guns for Maplewood P.D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_pistol

For those interested, here is a little facts on the Beretta 92. Yes they are not some new space age design but they are more proven then just about any other brand or model of side arm.

Quote
"The 92F survived exposure to temperatures from -40°F to 140°F, being soaked in salt water, being dropped repeatedly on concrete, and being buried in sand, mud, and snow. Additionally, the 92F proved a MRBF (mean rounds before failure) of 35,000 rounds. That number is equivalent to five or six times the pistol's service life."

The u.s military is still using and buying them today.
Quote
"The M9 is the standard pistol of the U.S. Army and Air Force Security Forces, and the M9A1 is the standard pistol of the U.S. Marines.[7] A large number of M9s and M9A1s were ordered in 2006. During the 2009 SHOT Show, Beretta announced it had received a US$220 million contract for the delivery of 450,000 M9s and M9A1s to the U.S. military, within a five-year span.[8]"

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 01:17 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock




Glock handguns are currently used by a majority of U.S. law enforcement agencies.[2] Glock handguns are also very popular with civilians for personal protection and practical shooting, and the company sponsors a competitive shooting team which travels worldwide.[3] As of 2007, Glock produces more than two dozen models of handguns in seven different calibers.




Glock handguns are common sidearms among law enforcement agencies and military organizations around the world. The popularity of Glock pistols can be attributed to a number of factors. They are very reliable, being able to function under extreme conditions and to fire a wide range of ammunition types. The simplicity of the Glock design contributes to this reliability, as it contains a relatively small number of components (nearly half as many as the typical handgun) making maintenance and repair easier.




Glock's Torture test.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

heres a link to the toture test for Glock.. 15K rounds into it. even RAN over it on hard surface and still functioned.

He even had a guy turn in his H&K USP gun and it only had 1K round into it, did the torture test and the H&K fail miserably.




Glock VS Beretta quotes:


What are you going to use this for? If its for LE work, use what ever one you feel better shooting. Or which one you hit the target more with. The beretta is the standard issue Military sidearm. However, if you check the US Special Forces no longer carry the baretta. The new weapon is the Sig.



I would recommend the Glock over the Berreta. I have been issued Berettas, I have one now (in the closet, where it belongs) and wont carry it. You'll find the Glock more user friendly and leather gear easier to come by for the Glock. Good luck, stay safe.



I just got off active duty from Army Special Forces last year and we carried the Beretta 92F. There were no plans to change over to the Sig at that time. Army counter-intel agents, however, got issued Sigs. As to which is better, I feel that Glocks are just about as accurate out of the box as any pistol. I also like the same trigger pull every time on the Glock. The 92F is a double action/single action pistol with a huge difference between the first and second trigger pulls. In addition, the safety lever/decocking lever on the slide is in a really poor position, epsecially if you have small hands. In my opinion, the 92F is a solid duty weapon, however there are many pistols I would choose over it......including any of the Glocks.
FYI, the fact that Army Special Forces carries a weapon is not necessarily a sign that it is a great piece of equipment. 90% of equipment issed in Army Special Forces is equipment that will eventually be issued to the rest of the Army, especially when it comes to huge procurement contracts like weapons. Now stuff like weapons optics is somewhat different and we definitely got some stuff issued that the rest of the Army would never see. Nevertheless, when SF gets equipment, the rest of the Army gets it (depending on what it is), 2-5 years later. SF carries the 92F b/c that's what the Army ordered for the whole Army, not b/c the SF powers that be consider it a good weapon.


Amen to what said in the above post.

The glock is one of the most dependable semi - autos on the market in all of the environmental conditions described above. The same consistant trigger pull every time. It's just a great weapon. Period. End of story.



I can't think of a more durable gun than a glock. Both are well made and I wouldn't feel out gunned with either. But if its durability you want, go with the glock.




I think with this forum, you will find more guys and gals on here that will lean towards the Glock. I have had a Glock 17 for several years now. I wouldn't trade it for the world. Its my personal gun and I have had many offers from friends to buy it because I have 3 hi-cap mags. Sorry its MINE! Just curious, you mentioned how water affects the firearm. Do you plan on taking it with you in the wave pool frequently? LOL Just kiddin ya. My vote is for the Glock.



Never carried/ Glock - owned one for about 3 days though :D (it went bye-bye for my Colt CCO) but carried the 92 for 5+ years on the ocean and never had any problems with rust or the elements effecting it.


no words were altered while i quoted them... you can go to this site to verify.

http://www.911jobforums.com/archive/index.php/t-10620.html

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 01:24 PM
Here's a example and my belief is, this officer had a department issue Glock. IMO, had he had a gun with a thumb operated hammer block safety. things could have been much more different. Sad deal!

http://kstp.com/news/stories/s1129156.shtml




Crittenden was sent to the scene. Because he was the only North St. Paul officer on duty, he called for backup. Maplewood officer Julie Olson met Crittenden, the caller and the caller's daughter at the apartment.

As the group entered the apartment, Dockery, 34, allegedly came at them with a cloth, soaked in accelerant and on fire. According to the BCA, Crittenden pushed the woman and the girl out of the way.

As the group entered the apartment, Dockery, 34, allegedly came at them with a cloth, soaked in accelerant and on fire. According to the BCA, Crittenden pushed the woman and the girl out of the way.

The report said the rest of the incident played out like this: Dockery hit Crittenden with the cloth and the two fought. Dockery took Crittenden's gun from its holster and shot him once in the head. Dockery aimed the weapon at Olson and both fired.




To me this officer is a hero. he saved the lives of two girls and didnt have enough time to react and grab his gun but lost his life to it.

AND youre bickering about a GUN that could've made a difference. have a heart dude. Id do the same as this officer, id push the girls. If i was me, i wouldnt of done anything different regardless the weapon that was issued.

You know your past statement tells me you care about quality and brand of a gun over a life or two.

Guns cant be your priority in Law Enforcement, lives, espeically innocent lives are more important than a beretta 92 gun.

Regardless what the North St Paul officer had carry, Im more interested in WHAT holster he had... My holster is a level 2 and has a feature that youd have to know how to release my gun to begin with. IF the North St Paul officer had a level 1 holster, then its easy for someone to take it.


its not the GUN that is safe from suspects, its the HOLSTER that holds the gun.. keep that in mind. he could of had a H&K gun and still couldve gotten SHOT dead with the holster he had on... € he couldve had a .22 handgun, he still lost the battle of controlling his gun. couldve been a Springfield XD, or a Taurus, or a Ruger, or a Sig Sauer... any of those could of been the gun in this batte.. you cant not sit there and say that berettas are not functional if it fell in the wrong hands and had the officer had the beretta, he'd still be alive today. what an ignorance statement




Could you please post your link to where the info can be found on the issue guns for Maplewood P.D.



what does maplewood PD have to do with this? He was a North St Paul officer. it wasnt some bad accident discharge.. it was taken from the officer. first off, Bad response to keep his gun from getting into the suspects hand, 2nd, tactic training must of not taken in effect or not effective at all, 3rd, what kind of holster was he using?

Safety of an officer's gun is not the factor here at all. if had it been a accident discharge while in a holster or what not, then blame GLOCK's trigger safety if they were issued Glock which this isnt the case in this shooting. I still believe they carried the Berettas for the North St Paul PD.

your case about beretta being better is crumbing apart. I need evidence.. not stories.

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 01:51 PM
Back on Topic... Dakotazeb, have you checked out Springfield's new M model?

worth checking out!!

http://the-m-factor.com/home.html


I may purchase one after when i go to Gary's gun shop in Winner, (yes theres a gary's Gun shop number 2 in Winner, SD) and see if they have one or get one there so i can check it out. those guys are nuts.. they drive back and fourth to sioux falls weekly!

birdman652001
03-06-2010, 02:14 PM
onpoint.. heres a link that gives credit to BOTH glock and Berettas.


http://www.glockworld.com/content.aspx?Ckey=gwa_bvg

theres pros and cons of both guns.

birdshooter
03-07-2010, 10:42 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock

He even had a guy turn in his H&K USP gun and it only had 1K round into it, did the torture test and the H&K fail miserably.

Interesting. I saw an H&K torture test (barrel obstruction test) where they purposely lodged a round in the barrel and fired another one into it without blowing the gun up. The second round cleared the barrel and a slight bulge in the barrel I believe was the only damage. I wouldn't have an issue trusting a gun that could withstand this...

Here is the details of the test:


As the USP was developed at the same time as the SOCOM MK23, the pistol underwent much of the same rigorous testing. The barrel is cold-forged from chromium steel for increased life. USP barrels post-1994 use a polygonal profile, whereas 1994 and earlier models utilize traditional 'land and grooves' rifling. During testing, a bullet was deliberately lodged in a USP barrel. Another cartridge was then fired into the obstructing bullet. The second bullet cleared the barrel, resulting in a barely noticeable bulge. The pistol was then fired for accuracy and the resulting group measured less than 4 inches at 25 meters.[16

Labman
03-07-2010, 11:49 AM
Nobody says anything about the cz p-01. I really like mine in 9mm.

Dakotazeb
03-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Birdman, I think we are going to go to SF next weekend to the Sprotsman's Show. I"ll try to get to Gary's. Do they let you test various handguns at their indoor range?

That Springfield XD(M) looks nice but at this time I'm leaning toward the Glock 23. It's somewhat smaller size and lighter weight would allow me to conceal it easier should I desire. But shooting a few different guns would probably make the decision easier.

birdman652001
03-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Birdman, I think we are going to go to SF next weekend to the Sprotsman's Show. I"ll try to get to Gary's. Do they let you test various handguns at their indoor range?

That Springfield XD(M) looks nice but at this time I'm leaning toward the Glock 23. It's somewhat smaller size and lighter weight would allow me to conceal it easier should I desire. But shooting a few different guns would probably make the decision easier.

They didnt build a second gun shop in Winner, they took over Hansen's drug store which then became Hansen's hunting store.. then he passed away and Gary's gun shop took over.

so no range but heck of a storage room and a nice maintence shop that they have even when Hansen's had it.


I wish there was a range, but however in Winner, I cant take a gun and go test shoot it on my farm land. I'd have to go to Sioux Falls to Gary's gun shop. I still have a memebership there as i used to be LEO out there and we did Quals at their shop.


I think you make the best choice on a Glock 23. They do carry the Speers Gold Dot as well there. Ask them for their opinion of grain when you go. they will ask you a few questions and pick a good grain for you to use. more grain, the more heat, but also more fps as well.

birdman652001
03-07-2010, 12:46 PM
Interesting. I saw an H&K torture test (barrel obstruction test) where they purposely lodged a round in the barrel and fired another one into it without blowing the gun up. The second round cleared the barrel and a slight bulge in the barrel I believe was the only damage. I wouldn't have an issue trusting a gun that could withstand this...

Here is the details of the test:


you have to becareful how they test guns. they will do quality work on ONE test gun and then produce the rest of the guns in cheaper materials.

Ive heard of gun manufactors will go to the extreme to make a GREAT test gun, but the rest of the production would be cheaper and wouldnt of pass tourture test as stated as an example of the glock's test along with the H&K test of a newly bought gun


either way, i wouldnt trust H&K guns. I hardly see them for sale. I see alot of springfields, Glocks, Walthers, Taurus (cheap verison of the Berettas) and lots of .22 hand pistols.

as stated somewhere on this thread, H&K failed and had numberous mis fires. and had to be replaced. you probably were the ton of lucky gun owners that didnt mis fire in any conditions.

Glock did NOT make a "special" gun to pass the torture test, they produced every gun as it was a speical gun and heck you can find parts fo these guns WORLDWIDE! Glock doesnt change their set ups and kept it original so fixing it comes easy and not costy.

Gun makers such as S&W, H&K, Berettas and more are constantly changing to exceed their expectations, to me Glock does it even with their old blueprint.


howver in a gun, people want accuracy and dependable, Glock made that back in the 80's and havent changed that except now have ported barrels which to me is ridiculous and isnt needed.

I like glock, its commonly found world wide and is in majority of law enforcement and military as a great gun. IF H&K has passed series of test, it would be that gun today, unforunately, its not.

If dakotazeb buys a glock 23... and buys a Glock 22 down the line.. all of his magazine will fit either gun.

I wished i had a Glock 23 to use as a backup in case i lose my Glock 22.. bc my duty mags will fit a 23 and i can still defend the public and myself.

H&K doesnt make such compatiable magazines for such gun from compact to full. Or at least that im aware of.

birdshooter
03-07-2010, 01:23 PM
you have to becareful how they test guns. they will do quality work on ONE test gun and then produce the rest of the guns in cheaper materials.

How do we know Glock doesn't do this manipulation as well?


either way, i wouldnt trust H&K guns. I hardly see them for sale. I see alot of springfields, Glocks, Walthers, Taurus (cheap verison of the Berettas) and lots of .22 hand pistols.

NOt seeing them for sale might tell ya something about it. Know one wants to part with their H&K??



Glock did NOT make a "special" gun to pass the torture test, they produced every gun as it was a speical gun and heck you can find parts fo these guns WORLDWIDE! Glock doesnt change their set ups and kept it original so fixing it comes easy and not costy.

Not knocking Glock, I'm sure they are a fine gun or the law enforcement people wouldn't be using them, but how do we actually know what really goes on with their testing. Just because they say so??


Gun makers such as S&W, H&K, Berettas and more are constantly changing to exceed their expectations

Not sure why that would necessarily be a bad thing?

birdman652001
03-07-2010, 01:47 PM
NOt seeing them for sale might tell ya something about it. Know one wants to part with their H&K??



if they were, more and more law enforcement and even military would be using them today. so far, their weakness has been malfunctions/mis fire. common people like us can deal with mis fire and malfunctions, but when it comes to LE, we cant deal with it. heated moments dont get to be put on pause.





Not knocking Glock, I'm sure they are a fine gun or the law enforcement people wouldn't be using them, but how do we actually know what really goes on with their testing. Just because they say so??



same to what i said above. if H&K were proven to be better than Glocks.. Glocks wouldnt be in LE or Military




Not sure why that would necessarily be a bad thing?

too many changes lead to alot of parts will be halted in production only to make a new parts for the new designed gun. stick with the original design will outlast any gun if they keep changing products. Gun manufactors will lose money if they keep making parts for a gun thats no longer in production oppose to the new gun on the market.


same with vehicles. change the design, the old designs, you'll eventually have to go to a recycling place to get your "USED" part rather than new if they dont make production of them.




I think this Thread now can be closed.. Dakotazeb has made his choice and will see more options when he goes to the Gary's Gun Shop in Sioux Falls for his feel of comfort. Gary's gun shop has experts there that have the knowledge. they will help him and we'll see his results when he post his final gun he chooses. It is all up to now Gary's great known reputations of all kinds of guns. I have faith that they will direct him to the right and comfortable gun for him that fits his needs.

thanks for your time.

birdshooter
03-07-2010, 02:10 PM
I still think you can build upon a proven design to make it even better. This goes for any business. If one rests on their laurels and become complacent then the competition will pass you up, not only in sales, but the quality of their product.

I'm sure Glock does not rest on it's laurels and even if their basic design hasn't changed much, they continue to strive to improve upon what they have. This might be in their testing, this might be in the form of adding new features/materials to make it not only safer, but more accurate and dependable then it currently is.

onpoint
03-07-2010, 03:44 PM
Quote birdman652001
"police rather have a quick drawing guns than to have a switch, Im left hand, i can NOT have a trigger finger be doing the safety buttons, hence Glocks dont need an EXTRA finger to turn off the safety. if we had berettas, they wont and probaly wouldnt spend that extra dollar to get me a left hand model. you are issued what they have. period. no one gets fanicer."

______________________________________

For information purposes only. The Beretta 92 & 96 are right or left handed safety operation.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/jiganator/beretta92safety.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s168/jiganator/92safety.jpg

Also, the same magazines from the standard size frame or compact model fit both guns.

I'm only supplying this as information in the choosing of the Org posters carry gun or information for others who may be interested. Just posting what I have had for experience and those I have as family and friends in law enforcement and military community. Wish you the best in whatever you choose for a side arm.

Onpoint

birdman652001
03-07-2010, 04:06 PM
Dakotazeb, whatever you do, dont let them convince you of a Ruger KP95 gun.... according to my buddy who just got done at a federal academy training...



By the way they had us shooting Ruger KP95's at FLETC, what a piece of shit.



if any of you dont know what FLETC is.. its Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Ive attended this years ago back in 2006.. thank god from what he said, we didnt shoot these guns for training.

birdman652001
03-07-2010, 04:18 PM
I'm only supplying this as information in the choosing of the Org posters carry gun or information for others who may be interested. Just posting what I have had for experience and those I have as family and friends in law enforcement and military community. Wish you the best in whatever you choose for a side arm.

Onpoint

Now we're getting somewhere.. this is an opinion from a beretta guy. this post is well mannered and appropriate way to express your opinion.

birdman652001
03-07-2010, 04:25 PM
I still think you can build upon a proven design to make it even better. This goes for any business. If one rests on their laurels and become complacent then the competition will pass you up, not only in sales, but the quality of their product.

I'm sure Glock does not rest on it's laurels and even if their basic design hasn't changed much, they continue to strive to improve upon what they have. This might be in their testing, this might be in the form of adding new features/materials to make it not only safer, but more accurate and dependable then it currently is.



I went to the local Runnings Farm and Fleet, Fort Pierre gun shop, and Dakotamart.

Runnings and Dakotamart did NOT have H&Ks.. i asked why.. they said the demands for them are low. we do not carry guns that are low demands.

Gun shop had several used one. I asked them if they are good guns compared to GLocks or Springfields or even Berettas.

they said and I QUOTE: "personally i wouldnt buy one. the people who traded these guns went for a XD or a Glock.

one customer had a H&K that was no good. I refused him to trade his gun to me. Not worth fixing. "

Dakotamart was no help. there was just 20 year old kids with an older man who was constantly busy so i did not ask him about it bc i respect his time frame as the kids were not your best choice to ask about hand guns.

Runnings had ONE beretta 92FS for sale, had lots of Rugers for sale, Lots of Glocks for sale.

you will see LOTS of glocks for new or used... take this for ecxample. GM make so many Grand Prix and Grand Ams that EVERYONE about had one. you see more and more of them at used car lots.

same with glocks. theres soo many productions of them its common to see them.

as far as glock making new glock? yes they do. theres Glock, Glock gen 2, Glock gen 3 and Glock gen 4(current) as they might readjust the grip pattern, or new plastic trigger instead of the old one, or whatever. it could be a brand new metal spring they decided to use.. but the design of the Glocks are mostly the same. I have NOT see a hammer type glock yet.

ported barrels are the newest but not needed. I think a lot of competition shooting are using the ported from Glock for less recoil from the gun power.


If someone gave me a H&K right now.. for free. I wouldnt accept it.

moellermd
03-08-2010, 01:08 PM
Boy a guy leaves for a week and the whole place comes tumbling down.

birdman652001
03-08-2010, 01:12 PM
Boy a guy leaves for a week and the whole place comes tumbling down.


it did?



.

Dakotazeb
03-08-2010, 02:09 PM
Boy a guy leaves for a week and the whole place comes tumbling down.

You only missed some great discussion and advice on semi-auto handguns. But take the time to read this thread and offer your opinion.

Welcome back. Where were you? When I was gone to Arizona for a week I took my laptop and was able to keep in touch with UPH.

moellermd
03-08-2010, 09:40 PM
You only missed some great discussion and advice on semi-auto handguns. But take the time to read this thread and offer your opinion.

Welcome back. Where were you? When I was gone to Arizona for a week I took my laptop and was able to keep in touch with UPH.


My wife made me go to Cabo. :eek:

I think what has been said is good advice. I to am a Glock 22/23 fan. I have both and both are very reliable they always go bang. Back in my army days I worked with a sheriff deputy who was the range officer. Every noon we would head to the range for lunch and do some failure to stop drills. Two to the body, one to head, throw in a couple pelvic girdles every now and then to mix it up. We would easily shoot a 100 rounds every noon. After doing that for a couple months I never had a malfunction with the Glock, well maybe a stove pipe or two but that can probably be attributed to the reman ammo. I also have a couple Kimbers. They are nice but like all 1911's they can be picky on the ammo. A Glock will eat anything.

birdman652001
03-08-2010, 09:56 PM
My wife made me go to Cabo. :eek:

I think what has been said is good advice. I to am a Glock 22/23 fan. I have both and both are very reliable they always go bang. Back in my army days I worked with a sheriff deputy who was the range officer. Every noon we would head to the range for lunch and do some failure to stop drills. Two to the body, one to head, throw in a couple pelvic girdles every now and then to mix it up. We would easily shoot a 100 rounds every noon. After doing that for a couple months I never had a malfunction with the Glock, well maybe a stove pipe or two but that can probably be attributed to the reman ammo. I also have a couple Kimbers. They are nice but like all 1911's they can be picky on the ammo. A Glock will eat anything.

a great statement.

every qualification for our weapons, my Glock 22 has never failed a fire. however my AR-15 has but again those qualifications, some of those 223s were re-loads. when they do mis-fire, you have to do this qual as if it was a line of duty action, pump out that dead bullet and get back on the firing. Weapon Quals were timed. same with my glock, but again i have yet to experience that mis fire.

the actual new loads for AR-15s havent failed. yet. (knocks on wood)

I havent acutally fired my gun in the line of duty, but I hope i never do, I have pulled my gun often.

moellermd
03-09-2010, 10:52 AM
Just as another thought. If a guy wanted a slimmer gun to carry every day a 1911 in some configuration might be in order.

No matter what a guy buys he wants to spend the extra money for Night Sites.

BleuBijou
03-09-2010, 11:15 AM
Personally, don't care for the night sights. How many of you have shot at night? Try it! After the first shot you won't see anything anyway. Most confrontations are up and personal, so practice just pointing the gun at a 11 by 11 target. You will be amazed at how many rounds you can put in that target. I would rather spend the money elsewhere. Moellermd, how does your wife make you go to such nice places??? Mine just makes me mow or shovel snow!!!:cheers:

birdman652001
03-09-2010, 11:38 AM
Personally, don't care for the night sights. How many of you have shot at night? Try it! After the first shot you won't see anything anyway. Most confrontations are up and personal, so practice just pointing the gun at a 11 by 11 target. You will be amazed at how many rounds you can put in that target. I would rather spend the money elsewhere.


My gun has a trjion sights. I work nights, I do need them, but they act as a white dot during the day. You can get the gun this way. White dots still show even at night. i dont think the average joe needs night sights anyways....



Just as another thought. If a guy wanted a slimmer gun to carry every day a 1911 in some configuration might be in order.

No matter what a guy buys he wants to spend the extra money for Night Sites.

yah a 1911 isnt gonna quite be the gun to carry bc it may be SLIMMER, but it is sure heavy and bulky gun. .45 is an overkill really.

say you had a perp break in.. comes in your room, stands 3 feet from you, and you fire that 1911, that bullet wont stop in the perp and will carry the bullet to the next room say where your kids sleep in... you want stopping power... and hopefully stops the bullet in the perp.... no need having the bullet to hit more than one target.

moellermd
03-09-2010, 12:02 PM
My gun has a trjion sights. I work nights, I do need them, but they act as a white dot during the day. You can get the gun this way. White dots still show even at night. i dont think the average joe needs night sights anyways....

I guess I would disagree. Night sites make for much quicker site acquisition. If you are going to carry you should now how to use the tools available. If LEO are using them there is a reason for it.




yah a 1911 isnt gonna quite be the gun to carry bc it may be SLIMMER, but it is sure heavy and bulky gun. .45 is an overkill really.

I guess that comes down to personal preference. I will trade slim for 3 oz of weight. But I can see your point.


say you had a perp break in.. comes in your room, stands 3 feet from you, and you fire that 1911, that bullet wont stop in the perp and will carry the bullet to the next room say where your kids sleep in... you want stopping power... and hopefully stops the bullet in the perp.... no need having the bullet to hit more than one target.

An examination of FBI gelatin penetration test will show that the 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP. Have very similar depth of penetration all with in an inch. In some cases, Remington Golden Saber, the 40 has more penetration than a 45.

birdman652001
03-09-2010, 01:14 PM
I guess I would disagree. Night sites (is spelled sights) make for much quicker site acquisition. If you are going to carry you should now how to use the tools available. If LEO are using them there is a reason for it.







I dis-agree with night sights.

I should RE Phrase that, my SIGMA 40 has the night sights. which is NOT my duty gun. My duty gun (Glock 22) does NOT have night sights, but i dont really need them bc most times, i can see the white dots in the dark.

not one of our LE officials here have Night Sights as well as i know of.

night sights is NOT gonna improve your accuracy.

when you fire a gun, the blast of the gun powder is gonna blind you temp and you aernt gonna be able to line a sight up again right off the bat.

evne in the dark, your eyes are adjusted to the dark when it is already dark, no need for night sights. even if you had night sights, the glow lights from the night sights will interfere with you trying to see your Target ahead of the gun's sight.
if you can shoot a gun without night sights and see the shadow of your gun to the target, thats what you need, not glowing lights from the night sights to improve your shooting.

night sights is another un neccessory accessory that someone is making money by selling.

Chip
03-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Alot of my customers like night sites. I don't think it hurts your shooting ability. I guess to each his own. I personally think a Crimson Trace laser is a better add on. A little pricey, but if your buying a handgun for personal protection, price is not the most important factor. Besides target practice with a laser is alot of fun.

moellermd
03-09-2010, 03:08 PM
night sights is another un neccessory accessory that someone is making money by selling.

They must be doing a pretty good job of marketing. El Paso County Sheriff Department and the Colorado Springs PD require night sights on duty weapons. The NRA sanctioned Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor Course I attended in 2001 also recommended them.

birdman652001
03-09-2010, 03:25 PM
Great for those who want them.

I dont have one, our dept doesnt issue them, if they are issued in other depts, then thats what they wanted.

Im not saying they are a bad thing to have. im just taking in light if what glow lights could affect when shooting your target.

moellermd
03-09-2010, 03:38 PM
Moellermd, how does your wife make you go to such nice places??? Mine just makes me mow or shovel snow!!!:cheers:

That was my punishment for hunting pheasants so much in the fall.

Dakotazeb
03-09-2010, 03:41 PM
Come on guys. Lets not let this become a "pissin contest". Everyone has their opinion and we don't always agree, but that's fine.

I've gotten a lot of good advice from this thread and that was the intent. What I do with it is my business. Whether you guys want night sights on your gun is a personal preference. Let it go at that. Okay?

I do thank everyone for their input. :cheers:

birdman652001
03-09-2010, 03:43 PM
That was my punishment for hunting pheasants so much in the fall.

My sister is in St Thomas this week. I wish i could take vacations as well.. but my position does decline me to do so.

I dont know how many times I was on vacation and still get called out. Lot of times, if its a fender bender call, i wont go, but if it something fatal or minor, I will. my wife accepts that i get called out alot. i work 12 hour shifts, i get called alot to office or road on my days off any time of day or night.

it sucks.

my term of vacation is sitting in my unit sleeping when its slow.. im away from the wife... im away from the office.. im away from wife's honey to do list crap..


and i HOPE she doesnt read this and catch me or i will be thrown in the hole.... lol

onpoint
03-10-2010, 06:59 AM
My sister is in St Thomas this week. I wish i could take vacations as well.. but my position does decline me to do so.

I dont know how many times I was on vacation and still get called out. Lot of times, if its a fender bender call, i wont go, but if it something fatal or minor, I will. my wife accepts that i get called out alot. i work 12 hour shifts, i get called alot to office or road on my days off any time of day or night.

it sucks.

my term of vacation is sitting in my unit sleeping when its slow.. im away from the wife... im away from the office.. im away from wife's honey to do list crap..


and i HOPE she doesnt read this and catch me or i will be thrown in the hole.... lol

:10sign::cheers:(on the wife thing) Thanks for all you do on and off duty time for us folks, keeping our roads and homes safe. My best bud has to do the same thing when were hunting together in SoDak..he lives two doors down from my place and I never have to worry about our place but sometimes the timing of those calls really SUCKS!..You would already know that though.

Dakotazeb
03-13-2010, 07:26 PM
I just returned from Sioux Falls where I went to Gary's Gun Shop had the opportunity to test fire a couple of pistols on their indoor range. I tried the Glock 22 and the Springfield XDM. Not a great deal of difference but my preference was the XDM. I think because it fit my hand better. And probably because of the better fit I noticed less recoil with it. My hands are on the smaller side and the grip on the XDM just felt better. So I think if I was to pull the trigger on a purchase right now it would be the XDM. I've been watch some on GunBroker.com. I really l ike the look of the bi-tone. I'll let you know when I get one bought.

http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad181/dakotazeb/SpringfieldXDm.jpg

birdman652001
03-13-2010, 08:42 PM
Great deal! XD or Glock would be the best choice. Like i said, check into the XDm and you did... glad you did. I even considered checking into the XDm as well.

Dakotazeb
03-13-2010, 08:56 PM
I do have a question about night sights. It's been a few years since I've shot a pistol and the changes in my eyes is making it more difficult. I do not wear glasses except for the "cheaters" I wear to read and for close up. But now as I've aged, seeing the sights on a pistol is more difficult. Would the night sights help me?

moellermd
03-13-2010, 10:00 PM
I do have a question about night sights. It's been a few years since I've shot a pistol and the changes in my eyes is making it more difficult. I do not wear glasses except for the "cheaters" I wear to read and for close up. But now as I've aged, seeing the sights on a pistol is more difficult. Would the night sights help me?

In low light yes in day light no.

Dakotazeb
03-13-2010, 10:10 PM
In low light yes in day light no.

That's what I thought. But it's the low light conditions that cause me the most problem. Brighter conditions aren't a problem. But today at Gary's range the lighting conditions were not very good so I was struggling to see the sights especially against the black silouette target. But I still put all 50 rounds in the body at 25'. Not bad for an old blind guy. :)

moellermd
03-13-2010, 10:26 PM
That's what I thought. But it's the low light conditions that cause me the most problem. Brighter conditions aren't a problem. But today at Gary's range the lighting conditions were not very good so I was struggling to see the sights especially against the black silouette target. But I still put all 50 rounds in the body at 25'. Not bad for an old blind guy. :)

Most confrontations take place at far less than 25'. In most cases if you can see anything that resembles a front site post and your trigger control is correct you will hit the target.

onpoint
03-14-2010, 08:26 PM
In our handgun training. The rule was, if you have let your assailant get within 20ft of you and your gun is still holstered. He will be able to cover that 20ft before you can draw your gun and fire.

It was told, if the person is a threat to you or your families safety. You need to make the decision before they get that close. I know that's not always possible but you risk a tussle for your gun and it could be you who's the one getting shot(with your own gun).

moellermd
03-14-2010, 08:58 PM
In our handgun training. The rule was, if you have let your assailant get within 20ft of you and your gun is still holstered. He will be able to cover that 20ft before you can draw your gun and fire.



So very true. We would often demonstrate this to recruits.

birdman652001
03-15-2010, 09:14 AM
we are often trained to do this. My SGT has shown this demonstration and he did a pull gun and fire right at the holster level in with the (paper) perp standing 1yd away and it was like a 1-2 sec shot. me and another officer were standing next to him as if he was interviewing the perp and he was explaining to us this and that and then boom! gun went off. i didnt even see it coming, he drew that gun as quick as my eye could blink and he put a nice hole in the paper. even now i can do what he did. took practice but it does work.

Moral is even at "20ft" (we LE doing weapon quals dont use the term "ft" we use "YARDS"), be quick and fire when threat is present.


This is when the officer or person needs to be aware and used to their holsters. ive been using my same duty holster for now 5 years and im used to it. Ive always kept my distance from talking to people, regardless if its an old lady or young. new rookies and such have a long way to go to obtain a good trained skill.

no offense but all weapon qualifications are maxed to 25yds or some depts up to 50yds. if you cant master a 3ft un holstering and shoot at hip level, you shouldnt be in Law Enforcement bc that'll get you killed.

My recent qual (first week of March) my points were 256 out of 260. That was including a 3ft shooting at hip level two times all the way to 25yd left and right shooting. left and right cover, and standing left and right shooting. 20ft may be close, but you have enough time to draw your gun. if hes standing at 3ft and has a knife, you may get stabbed but you may not die right away, but at least your gun at point blank will do more damage to the person who had the knife then where you were stabbed unless he hits a main blood vein.

I have to dis-agree with onpoint with the "if you let your assailant get within 20ft of you", you should be able to draw your gun in 1-2 secs and fire.

our dept quals at 3ft. 5yds. 7yds. 15yds. 25yds.


in our test, our instructors will put in a dummy bullet. this is to train you if your gun mis-fires. so you have to be ready bc one mag may have a full load of good bullets, and one mag may have 1 or 4 dummy bullets. this training i go is intense! youre being timed. Those drills are the mis fire drills. Rifle and shotgun quals are usually after the handgun quals.


In our handgun training. The rule was, if you have let your assailant get within 20ft of you and your gun is still holstered. He will be able to cover that 20ft before you can draw your gun and fire.

It was told, if the person is a threat to you or your families safety. You need to make the decision before they get that close. I know that's not always possible but you risk a tussle for your gun and it could be you who's the one getting shot(with your own gun).

no offense, but what line of work do you do to get a hand gun training? security?

moellermd
03-15-2010, 02:03 PM
I have to dis-agree with onpoint with the "if you let your assailant get within 20ft of you", you should be able to draw your gun in 1-2 secs and fire.



I would agree that you should be draw and fire in in 1-2 sec. That type of speed is often required on most LE quals. The problem is when you add reaction time and the 2 sec to fire the threat can cover that amount of ground.

This is what we would do for a demo.

Shooter stands at the firing line. Weapon holstered in an interview stance.
Another person, the runner, stands behind him facing the other way.
Runner places his hand on the shooters shoulder.
When runner starts to run away from the shooter his hand comes off his shoulder.
Shooter draws and fires.

Try this sometime at the range and I think you will find that by the time the shooter fires an accurate shot, usually only one needed, that the runner will have covered 20ft easily.

You are correct that a threat needs to be posed before drawing your weapon. What I think Onpoint was saying is that if an assailant is brandishing a weapon and is standing 20ft away you need to be at the high ready.

birdman652001
03-15-2010, 04:06 PM
I would agree that you should be draw and fire in in 1-2 sec. That type of speed is often required on most LE quals. The problem is when you add reaction time and the 2 sec to fire the threat can cover that amount of ground.

This is what we would do for a demo.

Shooter stands at the firing line. Weapon holstered in an interview stance.
Another person, the runner, stands behind him facing the other way.
Runner places his hand on the shooters shoulder.
When runner starts to run away from the shooter his hand comes off his shoulder.
Shooter draws and fires.

Try this sometime at the range and I think you will find that by the time the shooter fires an accurate shot, usually only one needed, that the runner will have covered 20ft easily.

You are correct that a threat needs to be posed before drawing your weapon. What I think Onpoint was saying is that if an assailant is brandishing a weapon and is standing 20ft away you need to be at the high ready.


when a perp comes running at you... are you gonna stand still and try to draw your gun? NO... you move back as much as you can and draw your gun at the same time. this will still give you the distance but not as much as it was before but at least youre moving. when someone runs after you with a knife, you are to keep moving around til you have th perp down. dont just stand there trying to get the gun out and fire. take steps back while drawing. you can draw a gun in 1-2 sec and still be able to fire at hip level and still walk backwards to try to keep the distance. first of all, if you see something in his hands, i wouldnt give this guy a chance, id draw my gun and keep it on my side of my leg, and if he runs, i got the gun already in my hands. lots of traffic stops i do, my hand is already on the gun and the thumb break is already broke, no matter what, im ready even if its my own mother, dont take chances. its said that there are more officers dead from traffic stops than any other field in law enforcement.
always be ready, hand on something and flashlight in other. just because its an old lady... or old man doesnt mean anything.

your touch the back and then as soon as he lets go, draw and fire....
thats a... strange theory to present.. but i can see what you mean by that deomstration as well.

every day, LE as myself are interviewing people in less than 5 ft in most cases. I do have videos from my dash cam ( i need to load for websites ) and you can see how I approach people and when i see a threat or someone is getting upset, you can see me backing up, distance myself from them, and a verbal warning constantly to keep their hands out of their pockets or behind their body.

I wont agree on the 20 ft thing, but i doubt that someone can gain control of your gun in 20ft, ( i will bold this phrase) ONLY IF YOURE NOT PAYING ATTENTION! then they can! if youre not careful.. this guy can stab you, shoot you with his own gun or gain your gun if youre not holstered properly. every year, we are trained twice a year on PPTC class and that is one of them to train us on. Keeping your gun out of the perp's hands and in your hands or holster. its an ON going training even for Vets! we've had alot of scuffles before.. even i had scuffles but never lost my gun to a real perp.


Ive been in LE since i turned 21 and been in LE since 2001. my first holster was a Wrap around holster. which was thrown out 4 years later when a Sioux Falls Police Officer could NOT un holster his gun in a knife fight. he got cut bad but another Officer was on the scene and shot the dude. The wrap around is a level 2 and he got the thumb break off, but the holster would NOT let go of the gun. they had to hack saw the gun out of the holster.

after awhile, they found it that the holsters were old and the screw tension got rusted that it wouldnt open again.

so then we got the SL 3.2.1 holsers and i had already purchased one before when i had the wrap around. i am comfortable with that holster that when we were using for the dept, it came to be comfort for me.


we could go on and on about this.. but i really want to see an instructor tell you what they tell me in EVERY qual, you can get your gun out in 1-2 secs even at interview stance. if you cant do that, then you're gonna lose on a 20ft stance.

seriously.

birdman652001
03-15-2010, 05:41 PM
Heres a video that i have found. if you go to 1:18 of the video. that will show you a hip draw. no more than 3-4 secs to draw and they are standing pretty close if someone became a threat. notice how they didnt take time to AIM. they did a draw at hip and fired. I known people to draw and shoot faster than demostrated in the video.

2:10 shows gun drawn and shot at very close range. this is the area i could make a good shot with the distance of a perp if the perp branishes a weapon.

Noticed all guns were Glocks?

lZA20R4V_O8


In the academy for Law Enforcement, they train you to defend yourself in a knife fight, always be ready, it could be a young kid to an old lady, they can still kill you with a knife.

PPTC shows you how to fend them off if they try and give you enough reaction to grab your gun.

You'll see the Knife Vs you with a gun theory. once it gets to 0:30. you'll see what similar training ive had.

at 1:2o, you'll see a scenery of a house in tight space in a knife fight with bystanders and how to control that knife.

i wont recommend this man or anything, but hes got the concept that you can win a knife fight, even if you werent prepared


acACCHJzJ6o

its not exactly the same but majority of it does show what ive gone through.

take it from a person whos been doing this for 9 years. you CAN win a knife fight and you CAN win a 3ft battle.

moellermd
03-15-2010, 11:17 PM
Videos :eek: Now we are really out of control.

I guess we just have a disagreement on tactics.

PPCT is good stuff went through the training way back when. You are sore after that.

Dakotazeb
03-31-2010, 10:55 AM
Hey guys, still haven't bought a new hand gun. I'm waiting on a little commission check to arrive around the end of April. Maybe in time for my birthday. But as I've continued to look at semi-auto handguns and various calibers I have a question. I was pretty set on getting something in a 40 S&W but what about the 357 Sig? Looks like it has better ballistics than the 40 S&W.

moellermd
03-31-2010, 07:51 PM
Hey guys, still haven't bought a new hand gun. I'm waiting on a little commission check to arrive around the end of April. Maybe in time for my birthday. But as I've continued to look at semi-auto handguns and various calibers I have a question. I was pretty set on getting something in a 40 S&W but what about the 357 Sig? Looks like it has better ballistics than the 40 S&W.

I guess my personal opinion would be that the 357 Sig is wonderful solution to a non-existent problem. For all practical purposes the 40 will solve all your "problems" that a pistol is needed for. Ammo is cheaper and the add shoulder on the 357 Sig does nothing for me.

Dakotazeb
03-31-2010, 08:12 PM
Yeah, I checked on ammo prices and it appears the 357 Sig is about 50% more. Where the 40 S&W is about $20 a box the 357 Sig is $30.

onpoint
03-31-2010, 08:39 PM
If you ever decide to sell or trade a gun in 357 Sig. You will have a tough time moving it and not many are going to want to take it on trade. Stay with the 40 or other popular cartridge.

kiotehntr
04-01-2010, 08:52 AM
I like the fact that my .40 will take care of any and all problems that should arise if someone is stupid enough to break into my house. If they make it past my GSP and my 90lb Doberman(she gets commands in german) then they won't stand a chance once they get back to our bedroom.

Aim to kill, kill to protect.....

birdman652001
04-02-2010, 05:36 AM
dont get a 357... after the first shot, espeically if you had been sleeping for hours and someone breaks in... youre gonna have a hard time aiming. Stick to the .40.

Dakotazeb
04-11-2010, 08:40 AM
Back again with another question. What about a Smith & Wesson SW40VE?

There was one that sold on the live auction last night at the local Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation banquet. It look like a nice gun with dimensions similar to the Glock 23. I've looked at some on GunBroker.com and they are price considerably under the M&P's, Glock's and XDM's.

http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad181/dakotazeb/SWSW40VE.jpg

birdman652001
04-11-2010, 08:41 PM
Back again with another question. What about a Smith & Wesson SW40VE?

There was one that sold on the live auction last night at the local Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation banquet. It look like a nice gun with dimensions similar to the Glock 23. I've looked at some on GunBroker.com and they are price considerably under the M&P's, Glock's and XDM's.

http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad181/dakotazeb/SWSW40VE.jpg

i have one.. i wouldnt recommend it.. the striker gives out alot. ive been already repaired 3 times. They are cheap. i think i bought mine for 350.00. i didnt know anythign about them when i bought mine as a security officer years and years ago before i could be a cop at the age of 21.


I wouldnt recommend it, but they have a great grip and feel for it. however.. if youre used to the Glock, the S&W will feel thicker and heavier than the glock and it is.

same designed though, just bulkier.

id stick to a glock or springfield.

birdman652001
04-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Our dept issues 180/11.66 grain/gram speers gold dot hollow point.


our practice bullets are at 115 to 155 depending on what brand we get...

i say 115 to 155 is perfect for a 23 which is a compact gun. you wouldnt want to get too much of a kick either on a compact compared to a full size Glock.



anyways, heres a pic of a comparable Glock and S&W hand guns.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SWSigma9/MVC-025F.jpg

This is what i have.

http://usera.imagecave.com/denfoote/SW40F.jpg



you can see the safety on the S&W and Glock on this picture.



Dakotazeb, heres what mine looks like. its from page 2 i believe.

Dakotazeb
04-11-2010, 08:59 PM
I read that they did have some problems with the early Sigs made in the mid 90's but they have corrected them. I've read a lot of excellent reviews. I can buy a new one for a little over $300 plus get a $50 rebate. For a guy like me that's not going to be putting thousands of rounds through it I don't see why it wouldn't be a okay personal defense gun. I'd like to shoot the SW40VE along side a Glock 23 for comparison. Might have to see if Gary's in Sioux Falls has one of each.

birdman652001
04-11-2010, 09:22 PM
I read that they did have some problems with the early Sigs made in the mid 90's but they have corrected them. I've read a lot of excellent reviews. I can buy a new one for a little over $300 plus get a $50 rebate. For a guy like me that's not going to be putting thousands of rounds through it I don't see why it wouldn't be a okay personal defense gun. I'd like to shoot the SW40VE along side a Glock 23 for comparison. Might have to see if Gary's in Sioux Falls has one of each.


that is where i bought my SW gun from is at gary's gun shop. dont get me wrong, but 3 times i had to get the striker fixed.. and each time.. it was free.. i just send my gun in with a pre paid postage and it was fixed in a 2 week time. although at that dept i was working for, it was my backup gun and i told them it had to be urgent. maybe for normal person, it could take some time.



like i said, its bulkier than the glock.. its heavier than the glock.. i had the LE mags so i had 5 more shells in the gun. definately go check it out. i wont say you SHOULDNT buy it.. however maybe the newer models are better than the one i had. I had the SW40F i believe. VE is the stainless steel top while F is black.

jmac
04-17-2010, 01:08 PM
u may want look into kimber. best hand guns made in my opion. the custom shop models are incredable. they are not a custom shop unless they say custom shop on the slide. pricey but well worth the price :)

JMc
04-17-2010, 04:06 PM
wow...another JMc (jmac); by the way, here are some of my choices:
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt49/mccjim/1911006-1.jpg

Dakotazeb
04-20-2010, 10:11 PM
I finally made up my mind and pulled the trigger on a new semi-auto. I'm getting a Springfield XDm Bi-tone in .40 S&W. I had Kessler's here in Aberdeen order one for me. They gave me the best deal. should be here by the end of the week.

http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad181/dakotazeb/SpringfieldXDm.jpg

BleuBijou
04-20-2010, 10:26 PM
I think you will be pleased!!!!:thumbsup: I have a bi-tone 45 and love it!!!

jmac
04-21-2010, 10:25 AM
dzeb, i think you made a great choice. my dad has one got to shot it last nov and i really liked it. jmc is that sub compact a kimber ulra raptor? if so i have one in custom shop love it . nice collection of hand cannons:thumbsup:

Dakotazeb
04-21-2010, 11:08 AM
Now I need a hip holster for my XDm. Any recommendations?

jmac
04-21-2010, 11:21 AM
off topic i just joined a week ago and as jmc stated wow another jmac readin another thread about two uncklebucks. jmc do you want me to change my handle? if so will do if some one will tell me how. :cheers:

JMc
04-21-2010, 04:21 PM
No way...no need to do that; that just makes us twice as cool as everybody else. Besides that, maybe they will get us mixed up and yell at you for awhile...:D

jmac
04-21-2010, 06:44 PM
JMC, thanks. I agree. Just makes us too cool and you are right, we might just get bitched at..........but that just makes it great. I will take your heat and you can take mine, LOL. :D:eek::D

jmac
04-21-2010, 06:49 PM
what are u looking for in a holster. shoulder hip sock dont know. shoulder the way to go imo but its all about what fits u.

birdman652001
04-24-2010, 07:55 AM
Now I need a hip holster for my XDm. Any recommendations?


ONE WORD...


Blackhawk.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/wolverine652001/S6300635.jpg

this one is what i use when im off duty or going to training/meetings.

I love it way better than Fobus. Fobus wears out fast.. blackhawk really does hold your gun better than the Fobus.

the cheif has one and never wore a duty holster, you could see his fobus looking like its ready to fall off his hip and his gun isnt secured. with Blackhawk, you get more to it. security button that locks your gun in place with a tension screw for adjustments. with fobus, you have one but its like a clip more than a lock. you can get carbon fiber (which i have) or a plain black. with fobus, you have to choose if you want paddle or belt loop. with blackhawk, you get BOTH belt loop and paddle. I have never used the belt loop, ive always used paddle. when i go to the jail, i can just take the whole holster out and place it in a gun lock before i go into the jail.

good luck on what you choose.

BleuBijou
04-24-2010, 09:24 AM
I like my Fobus paddle, but I have never tried a Blackhawk like Birdman is suggesting. You might have to try a few on to see how you like the fit and to see how fast you can get your weapon out and how secure it is for you. It is kinda like a saddle, if you are going to be riding everyday, you want one that fits and is comfortable.