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  #1  
Old 05-13-2011, 02:40 PM
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Chuckles Chuckles is offline
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Default Should I Woah Post?

Mojo is coming up on 1 year old here and I have been teaching Woah by at first physically putting him back into the place where I said Woah, and then a treat after I release, but now I want to take his obedience of the command to the next level with increased correction. I have his e-collar on but I don't really think a stim if he moves from after a woah command is going to be effective. He is really good with it except if in an odd situation and a long distance from me - so I need to be able to remote correct. What do you suggest?

I am considering using a woah post and then moving to e-collar on his flank to reinforce the Woah, or do I just keep doing what I have been doing and correct as soon as I can get to him?

Maybe I should just get some pigeons and get them flapping around in front of him and Woah him from a short distance to reinforce instead of worrying about woahing from a large distance for now.

Thoughts?
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Old 05-13-2011, 03:48 PM
oldandnew oldandnew is offline
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I have suggested this before, the axiom of birddog training is like the first rule of litigation for an attorney, never ask a question you don't know the answer to! Ala O.J. and the black gloves. Translation to dogs is you never want to put a young dog in a position to give the wrong behavior and fail. It follows than that short range steadying is more likely to be enforceable and sucessful at first than longer distance training, the progression to longer distance won't take to long, basically a dog is whoa broke or not, but they do learn bad behavior if you are not in position to make a fairly instantaneous correction! If distance creates the belief in a dog that you are powerless to correct because distance makes you unable to "lay hands upon the dog", the otherwise compelling desire to chase becomes overpowering, even at the risk of retribution later. Might lead to other issues as well, running bigger, for one, if a little distance is good, a lot of distance is even better! Heck, if I can get far enough out, he won't even see my bad behavior, if he can't see it, he can't punish me for it. Don't underestimate the mental gymnastics of a dog. Now this advice is more important without an e-collar, and I have never used one, finished 3 or 4 dozen dogs and never needed it, but I sure got tested now and then! E-collar can be great if used properly, there in lies the rub, can also do a lot of harm as well, and can't be a substitution for fundamentals. I used to raise and train racehorses as well, I would condition them as babies when they weigh about 60-100#'s by picking them up off their feet and carrying them around a little, they would struggle, and fight the first few times, I would release them when they stopped. Eventually, you could carry them in a relaxed manner. Those colts and fillies never bucked, never challenged anyone in any way, because they believed than the human handler could always pick them up and or control them. Seems silly for a 1200# horse to believe that, but they have that memory and they do, dogs are the same.
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Old 05-13-2011, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckles View Post
I have his e-collar on but I don't really think a stim if he moves from after a woah command is going to be effective.
Why don't you think it will be effective?

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I am considering using a woah post and then moving to e-collar on his flank to reinforce the Woah, or do I just keep doing what I have been doing and correct as soon as I can get to him?
Personally, I think you can do it without the whoa post. Using the collar around the flank is worth a try if you can't attain results with it around the neck.

Quote:
Maybe I should just get some pigeons and get them flapping around in front of him and Woah him from a short distance to reinforce instead of worrying about whoaing from a large distance for now.
As was explained to me by a pro, the dog must have the whoa command down and engrained away from birds first, so there will be no confusion on the part of the dog as to why it is being corrected when you eventually start using it around birds. In other words, the dog will not associate the correction with a bird or the bird flushing, but rather it disobeyed a command.

You can try using a retrieving bumper to entice the dog to move after the command whoa has been given. Keep working with it and they will get it after time. It takes reps.

Last edited by birdshooter; 05-13-2011 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:03 PM
B.Kossum B.Kossum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldandnew View Post
I used to raise and train racehorses as well, I would condition them as babies when they weigh about 60-100#'s by picking them up off their feet and carrying them around a little, they would struggle, and fight the first few times, I would release them when they stopped. Eventually, you could carry them in a relaxed manner. Those colts and fillies never bucked, never challenged anyone in any way, because they believed than the human handler could always pick them up and or control them. Seems silly for a 1200# horse to believe that, but they have that memory and they do, dogs are the same.
Been around horses all my life (helped break a few), but I have never heard of this. I ain't doubting you one bit though- I could see it working. I will definitely pass that on.
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Old 07-17-2011, 12:16 AM
FieldKing FieldKing is offline
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somewhere somehow the whoa post has gotten a bad rap. When used properly it is a great tool for "whoa" training.
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:00 AM
jetjockey jetjockey is offline
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Why not just use a check cord first until the dog is 100% on "whoa", and then move up to the e-collar? Perfect Start/Perfect Finishes way of teaching "whoa" is really easy, and it works.... Don't be afraid of the e-collar, but make sure you teach yourself how to use it before you introduce it to the dog. They are wonderful tools and can make training so much easier, but if used wrong, can make life a nightmare as well. My trainer uses the collar on the flank at all times. Even the fully broke trial dogs. From what Ive seen, it works really well, plus it leaves room for the GPS collar around the dogs neck... "Whoa" posts work fine, but I don't see the need for them.
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by B.Kossum View Post
Been around horses all my life (helped break a few), but I have never heard of this. I ain't doubting you one bit though- I could see it working. I will definitely pass that on.
Kossum its called inprint training. Ive also used it on my horses and mules. I also like to hold older pups "3 months" make them stay still ,put hand in mouth, teach them to give early, as well as inprint them on birds when there young 8 to 10 weeks but be carefull not to spoke them.
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jetjockey View Post
Why not just use a check cord first until the dog is 100% on "whoa", and then move up to the e-collar? Perfect Start/Perfect Finishes way of teaching "whoa" is really easy, and it works.... Don't be afraid of the e-collar, but make sure you teach yourself how to use it before you introduce it to the dog. They are wonderful tools and can make training so much easier, but if used wrong, can make life a nightmare as well. My trainer uses the collar on the flank at all times. Even the fully broke trial dogs. From what Ive seen, it works really well, plus it leaves room for the GPS collar around the dogs neck... "Whoa" posts work fine, but I don't see the need for them.
jetjockey the reason for the whoa post is to introduce dog to haveing rope around flank and giving to it, and not coming back to handler as he's in front. When you overlay the ecoller on flank be sure to use lowes setting he "feels". KEEP BIRDS out of it till later.
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:49 AM
jetjockey jetjockey is offline
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Im aware why they use a "whoa" post. But you can do the same thing with a half hitch around the dogs flank on a small check cord (or leash) while going for walks. For most people, combining training with every day activities is much easier. You can teach heel and whoa easily when you are walking your dog. After the dog is collar conditioned, adding the e-collar is a piece of cake.
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Old 07-17-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetjockey View Post
Im aware why they use a "whoa" post. But you can do the same thing with a half hitch around the dogs flank on a small check cord (or leash) while going for walks. For most people, combining training with every day activities is much easier. You can teach heel and whoa easily when you are walking your dog. After the dog is collar conditioned, adding the e-collar is a piece of cake.
You missed my point about not haveing the dog come back to you when you start out. It learns to stand alone. I would bet your trainer does something similar we all do.
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